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Mind blown how fully grown adults can believe in godIt seems like such a fairytale I can’t believe people believe there is a god out there it just doesn’t make sense. Even educated people who believe in god I’m like how? And let’s say god was real why do we all have to submit to him like little bitches and pray and beg for the smallest amount of crumbs? There’s people dying horrible deaths hell even the holocaust and serial killers make me think wtf is this god doing? Christian’s and Muslims will give
you the most bullshit reasons why god allows suffering but I don’t buy it. God could of made life fun enjoyable gave us superpowers have everyone the ability to only be nice and caring towards one another. Instead he makes our minds fucked easily with depression and anxiety and unhappiness which people probably feel more of than happiness and content,
and worse of all our physical bodies are so damn sensitive . I was on TikTok and a guy was in a fire and his whole entire face was melted off and he’s sharing his story and basically he was burned alive in a car accident and wow so sad and distributing . Why did god make our bodies like pathetic little sacks. Hell even stubbing your toe hurts like hell so Pathetic. A little cut will turn into a scar and always visible : a stupid plant outside will make you get an itchy rash and our bodies fucking suck it’s either way too hot or freezing cold
I guess it’s easy to believe in god if your life is good and you rarely had any hardships. I’d probably believe god loves me too. But once you’ve been through the bulshit and it just keeps getting worse and gods little plan as Christian’s love to say … gods plan is to make my life hell? Make me suffer? Push me to the edge of suicide? No. It’s just the cruel unfairness and bullshit of life
Anyways that’s my little shit post rant
“Mommy I hate being alive! It’s YOUR fault!”
Dude. You’re weak as fuck and don’t deserve to be happy. You’re a fucking burden
“Mommy I hate being alive! It’s YOUR fault!”
Dude. You’re weak as fuck and don’t deserve to be happy. You’re a fucking burden
**[Circulating tumor DNA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulating_tumor_DNA)**
>Circulating tumor DNA (ctDNA) is tumor-derived fragmented DNA in the bloodstream that is not associated with cells. ctDNA should not be confused with cell-free DNA (cfDNA), a broader term which describes DNA that is freely circulating in the bloodstream, but is not necessarily of tumor origin. Because ctDNA may reflect the entire tumor genome, it has gained traction for its potential clinical utility; "liquid biopsies" in the form of blood draws may be taken at various time points to monitor tumor progression throughout the treatment regimen.
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**[Circulating tumor DNA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulating_tumor_DNA)**
>Circulating tumor DNA (ctDNA) is tumor-derived fragmented DNA in the bloodstream that is not associated with cells. ctDNA should not be confused with cell-free DNA (cfDNA), a broader term which describes DNA that is freely circulating in the bloodstream, but is not necessarily of tumor origin. Because ctDNA may reflect the entire tumor genome, it has gained traction for its potential clinical utility; "liquid biopsies" in the form of blood draws may be taken at various time points to monitor tumor progression throughout the treatment regimen.
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How well do you remember what it was like to be a child?
How well do you remember what it was like to be a child?
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
Ads like this don’t work if you don’t have kids.
Ads like this don’t work if you don’t have kids.
All lives, even the best of them, are horrible at best. It’s just most people are too stupid or delusional to realize how bad their lives really are.This is why it would have been better for all living things (both human and nonhuman) to have never existed. No existence means no suffering and the only total and permanent solution to pain and suffering is the extinction of all sentient beings.
Look into “Efilism”.
So Assisted suicide like in Belgium 🇧🇪 and Netherlands 🇳🇱 should be available in every country
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And guns should be legal everywhere for everyone like in Texas or at least there should be Suicide booths available for everyone in every city like from the TV 📺 show Futurama.
This community needs to stop its ableism.I’m fully for antinatalism as a movement and believe in many of its tenets and principles- that’s not what this post is about. This is about the fact that whenever one of you comes across a photo of a disabled child, you post that child, often with their faces uncensored, as evidence/credence for antinatalism. You say that the parents of these children are exploiting them, and simultaneously you exploit them when you post them here as examples. Then, in the comments, people call the child an “it” or a “thing” and say “why can’t they just let that thing die?” These comments are ableist and disgusting. Condemn parents of disabled children that post them for content, but don’t simultaneously pretend you care about people with congenital disabilities when you say that because we look different or are disabled we are “things” that should “just die.”
EDIT: Guys. I’m antinatalist. I’m not telling you all to stop being mad that people pass on disabling traits to their children because they just really want spawn. IM SAYING STOP CALLING DISABLED CHILDREN “THINGS” AND EXPLOITING THEM.
Trump didn’t get arrestedHow will I ever believe him again? He said he was gonna get arrested Tuesday but he lied to all of us. What else is he lying about?
Trump didn’t get arrestedHow will I ever believe him again? He said he was gonna get arrested Tuesday but he lied to all of us. What else is he lying about?
Definition of insanity
Definition of insanity
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
This should be part of the solution, but breeders think I'm crazy.My wife and I live in a midsize apartment. And everytime I take out the trash, I cannot help but wonder about the amount of garbage just the two of us produce. And all the energy needed to heat our home and gas our car. However, there's people having 4 and 5 kids. Those kids will eventually become polluters because that's how our current civilization rolls.
The population of other species is controlled through predators and diseases. However, we humans have been able to overcome our deterrents. We can even protect ourselves from natural phenomenons. So it's our responsibility to be fair with this world and not overpopulate it.
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
Having kids but hating them for who they are.Breeders need to understand that your children will not be their clones. They will have their own personality, and beliefs.
Having kids but hating them for who they are.Breeders need to understand that your children will not be their clones. They will have their own personality, and beliefs.
The answer really is, you don't. Just don't give your kids this diseaseIt took everything in me not to reply to this lmao
The answer really is, you don't. Just don't give your kids this diseaseIt took everything in me not to reply to this lmao
>www.sanogawa.live/death-is-coming
I figured you folks would enjoy my new hoodie. ☠️
I don’t know why you’re bragging over the fact that you’re a horrible, sick freak but alright. Downvote the truth all you want, doesn’t change the fact that you are all sick, wicked people. I can’t not see the difference between you and actual Nazis. Both dehumanized to justify extermination. You’re an actual stain on humanity. It get immense joy thinking about the day you’ll be judged and that incredibly sinking feeling kicks in. “Shit, maybe I shouldn’t have been an awful person”
I don’t know why you’re bragging over the fact that you’re a horrible, sick freak but alright. Downvote the truth all you want, doesn’t change the fact that you are all sick, wicked people. I can’t not see the difference between you and actual Nazis. Both dehumanized to justify extermination. You’re an actual stain on humanity. It get immense joy thinking about the day you’ll be judged and that incredibly sinking feeling kicks in. “Shit, maybe I shouldn’t have been an awful person”
Broke my hand a week ago. A huge pile of stuff almost collapsed onto me, I instinctively ran away but my hand got stuck and it was twisted so bad. Since then, the thought of cutting parts of my body or hanging myself in an attempt to die sends shivers down my spine.
Wish there was a needle or sth that we can inject into ourselves and die a painless death. I dont want anybody to physically suffer.
r/designporn would love it!
Why this is the last MaHm I ever hire. (We are both 44F salespeople on a deadline.)
Why this is the last MaHm I ever hire. (We are both 44F salespeople on a deadline.)
Is this what Republicans want to return to? Life Before Roe v Wade:
This trolls everyone from the natalists to the reproductive fascists 😅
Vast majority of people want to live. In fact only .00013% decide to end their life.
I mean you could kill yourself. I am not saying you should but you could.
I mean you could kill yourself. I am not saying you should but you could.
Who's gonna tell OP that this isn't r/depression lol
Just wow. Trash human of a mother decided she’s done parenting because she wants to live on a boat with her new hubby
Just wow. Trash human of a mother decided she’s done parenting because she wants to live on a boat with her new hubby
Do you agree, that this sub unintentionally promotes misogynyScrolling down just for a couple of seconds and you realize, that the vast majority of criticism is directed towards mothers or soon-to-be-mothers.
The iconography is simple, as precreation is mostly associated with pregnancy. But not only are men underrepresented in being the culprits of procreation, it causes an disproportional amount of hate to be solely directed towards women.
Do you agree? If not please share your thoughts.
saw this on another subreddit... I'm sorry, WHAT?!?!
She would get thrown out of the house and disowned. Back in Ancient Egypt, people would get executed for committing adultery, which sounds intriguing to me. She isn’t affiliated with my bloodline after that.
You have been gotPartially due to a lack of intelligence, you all fell for it
Even though I made it so clear I was messing with you
Never trust a guy saying he's a father of four
I can't believe how many of you fell for such a clear trick
Since my goal of trolling is complete, I will leave
You have been gotPartially due to a lack of intelligence, you all fell for it
Even though I made it so clear I was messing with you
Never trust a guy saying he's a father of four
I can't believe how many of you fell for such a clear trick
Since my goal of trolling is complete, I will leave
To the angry natalists telling us to kill ourselvesFirst of all, how much free time do you have? Don't you have kids to take care of instead of telling a group of random strangers to take their own lives because they express their views on the internet? So much for caring for children huh...
So, why don't we kill ourselves if our lives are so bad, huh? Because we're already here. Not by our own choice, we have formed many deep connections with the ones surrounding us. Just like you, we love and care for our families and partners, friends and pets. If we died tomorrow, those people (and pets) would be devastated, their lives would be ruined and it will lead to devastating depression and grief for them.
We have obligations to those we care for, obligations to work and financing our families who might not be able to do it by themselves. We didn't choose this life and it's hardships, but as long as we're here we're trying to make the most of it for those we love, just like you.
We won't stop expressing our worldview. We will remain alive, even out of sheer spite to those who tell us to kill ourselves, because we, just like you, have a right to express what we believe in, form a community and spend our time here following our ideals. At least, unlike you, we don't wish for anyone to take their own lives. We just wish not to begin a life doomed for suffering in the first place... Those who are already here deserve respect, care and love.
Life is hard and meaningless, but we don't owe you to kill ourselves because you disagree with our worldview. We have, or are forced to have, a reason to continue living. And we will continue spreading our ideas the whole time we're here.
It’s really weird how natalists are raiding this sub and the comments. I’ve seen so much pro life and telling us to kill our selves
Downvoted
Downvoted
DICK AND BALLS AND PENIS AND NUTSPISSING SO GOOD OOOOOHHHHHHH. I LOVE GETTING PEOPLE PREGNANT AND HAVING KIDS JUST TO SPITE YOU GUYS OOOOOOOH. PENIS COCK CUM SEX.
I have Dyslexia, ADHD and Autism. As far as I know my disorders have a 40-80 percent chance of being passed on, it's one of the many reasons I'll never have a child.
Why isn’t r/RightToDie and r/Efilism as popular as r/Anti-natalism?If your anti-natalist, you believe that it would have been better to have never been born. So Don’t you think that people should have the right to securely take their own lives through doctor assisted suicide and that doctor assisted suicide should be just as easily accessible as abortion is?
If yes, shouldn’t you be suscribed to r/RightToDie?
Also don’t you think suffering all the wild animals go through every second in the wild is horrible and that it would have better if other animals besides humans were never born either? So shouldn’t you be subscribed to r/Efilism as well?
[ Removed by Reddit ]
We're not the sameYou're antinatalist because you don't want to sentence innocent children to a wild and corrupt world.
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I'm antinatalist because I hate the miserable human species and I want it to go fully extinct as soon as possible.
​
We're not the same.
Sometimes, I have some violent fantasies for breeder, especially children.
Sometimes, I have some violent fantasies for breeder, especially children.
A study conducted are Harvard reveals childless couple on average are 63% happier than couple with children
A study conducted are Harvard reveals childless couple on average are 63% happier than couple with children
made a fresh batch of these stickers if anyone wants some!
>but is the thought behind antinatalism that humans should stop having children because it’s morally wrong period
Yes
>or because of the way the world is now
People often use this to *reinforce* the former. This is often called "conditional" or "soft" antinatalism. The sub /r/birthstrike delves more into this topic, though it is a much smaller and less active sub.
Is parent shaming something that should be allowed here? (please read body text)
This sub has seen countless posts that attack parents and their offspring, both before and after the introduction of our new mods. Now, many of us have universally agreed that child shaming is against the spirit of Antinatalism, and belongs to a place such as the subreddit KidsAreFuckingStupid, and not this sub (in fact, milking unconsenting children for karma is one very questionable activity in general).
However, that leaves the question: how about the parents? Should attacking and eyerolling at social media posts that show parents being happy about their offspring be allowed here? Personally, I don’t approve of this behavior, but we can see many defending the practice.
Another question is, should the exception be made for abusive parents? Some may argue that posting hate against abuse is different from posting hate against parents in general. I still feel like places such as the Facepalm subreddit are better places for such content.
Here, I will provide commonly posted opinions and reasoning for both sides.
# Pro Parent Shaming
- Shaming is a good way to bring attention and promote change
- These people won’t change anyway, why not mock them?
- Calling out parents as monsters should be protected under free speech
# Anti Parent Shaming
- It’s toxic and makes the sub look like an edgelord’s hideout
- These parents and would-be parents are simply uneducated, and shaming them makes the likelihood of scaring away potential future ANs
- It falls under hate speech
I think this a serious topic, and making the wrong decision may detriment the spread of AN. Please leave your thoughts in the comments below. If an overwhelming majority votes for a ban on this type of content, the rules may need to be seriously reconsidered and revised.
(Serious) If you did not asked to be alive, why you cannot just go to a hospital and say: "Look, I am tired of life and I just wanna rest forever. Please help me do it in a pacific way"?We are basically forcing people to look for less human ways to die. Some people just do not like life and I do not see a trouble with that.
Wow, has anyone seen this r/regretfulparents sub before? I’m just now discovering it. Never been more glad to be AN.
Wow, has anyone seen this r/regretfulparents sub before? I’m just now discovering it. Never been more glad to be AN.
Argument Against Antinatalism- All People Fall on The Masochist SpectrumI am not anti natalist though it's a philosophy I hold a lot of appreciation for as Thomas Ligotti is my favorite author and S1 true detective is my favorite piece of media of all time. Also this argument I'm sharing isn't one I necessarily believe but find interesting.
An ideology I more closely subscribe to is Buddhism, who Ligotti got me interested in to begin with. Both the Buddhist ideology and Antinatalism- is fairly accepting of the view all life is suffering, which brings me to my main point.
Hypothetically, if a group of beings existed and a majority of those beings received masochistic pleasure from their own individual self-struggle/suffering. Would that life still be worth living and propagating.
You people are bitterIdk why Reddit keeps recommending this group to me. I have no kids. I might not have kids. But to constantly shame and ridicule those who have children is wrong. You are ALL products of people of having children. You are hypocrites. If we all stopped having children the world would cease having humanity on it anymore. People have sex, sex is natural and sometimes birth control doesn’t work. Just because someone doesn’t want to have an abortion, which is traumatizing (I’ve had two), does not mean they are a bad person for having their baby.
Hey mods I think this sub needs to switch to privatewith the wave of posts in bad faith/asking "why do you believe in this" is excessive and we should private this sub so only members can engage
Found on r/nothowgirlswork
Found on r/nothowgirlswork
not learning from your mistakes and ending up with eight kids just sounds insane and pathetic.
Check out r/antinatalism2 or r/femaleantinatalism.
Less toxic and more open, with the same philosophy.
"Antinatalism Around the World" – a great and still ongoing project by Lawrence Anton, where he interviews antinatalists from different countries
This Reddit gets a mention in the conversation!
As a member of both /r/antiwork and /r/antinatalism, I can't imagine somebody being one and not the other.
OooooOoOoOoHHhhH! So scary!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
OooooOoOoOoHHhhH! So scary!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
The consequences of your own actions 😐
The consequences of your own actions 😐
Why aren’t more religious people anti-natalist? Why damn someone to eternal moral limbo?Thoughts? I’ll never reproduce cause of this reason, people are fallen and I’m tired of the earth, and the morals of my fellow man. What are some reasons for you?
“Mama got her tits out for strange men to put a roof over her ungrateful son’s head”
“Mama got her tits out for strange men to put a roof over her ungrateful son’s head”
Ehh the neverending hatefest in here.
Mental excercise: swap "chilren" and variations of "children" for, idk. "Jews". In that video. Would you still be laughing and upvoting, or would you say something's wrong?
Food for thought.
Good luck dude, hope everything goes well for you
Nitrogen and a plastic bag?
Guess in a months time I’ll be one of the strongest people to have lived. Finally some recognition. Though I’ll be picking a method that supposed to be relatively painless
Get over yourself- no one hates you
Why natalists hate us so muchHonestly, I feel like a large reason we receive so much backlash is because natalists do not understand the difference between child-free and antinatalism. If we wanted kids, we could do the ethical thing and adopt. Our decision to not birth kids does not mean one can not *have* kids. Any natalist currently arguing about needing to specifically birth their own children is, in my opinion, straight up a selfish, narcissistic idiot. There is no shortage to the number of kids being born, so why do you specifically need to contribute to that number? When there are “an estimated 153 million children worldwide are orphans (UNICEF),” what is your reasoning for having kids that goes beyond anything fundamentally selfish? The *only* argument I have ever seen against the philanthropic antinatalist position is the need for more humans to continue the human race, but nobody ever gives a valid reason for why they specifically need to birth their own children despite knowing the risks it poses to the unborn and knowing that the human race is fully capable of continuing without their contribution.
Why natalists hate us so muchHonestly, I feel like a large reason we receive so much backlash is because natalists do not understand the difference between child-free and antinatalism. If we wanted kids, we could do the ethical thing and adopt. Our decision to not birth kids does not mean one can not *have* kids. Any natalist currently arguing about needing to specifically birth their own children is, in my opinion, straight up a selfish, narcissistic idiot. There is no shortage to the number of kids being born, so why do you specifically need to contribute to that number? When there are “an estimated 153 million children worldwide are orphans (UNICEF),” what is your reasoning for having kids that goes beyond anything fundamentally selfish? The *only* argument I have ever seen against the philanthropic antinatalist position is the need for more humans to continue the human race, but nobody ever gives a valid reason for why they specifically need to birth their own children despite knowing the risks it poses to the unborn and knowing that the human race is fully capable of continuing without their contribution.
Upvote this PollAntinatalism is not about the hatred of babies, children, or their parents. There are antinatalists who adopt kids or parents who later becomes antinatalist. To make antinatalism popular, and to avoid getting branded as child-hating people-We should ban child hatred, parent hatred contentsOnly Philanthropic antinatalism will make our movement popular. **How to make Antinatalism popular?** Comment below
attaching an image from AN Facebook group, this is the reason I think it's wrong to hate parents for their ignorance. Many of them realize about AN quite later in their life. Antinatalism requires rebranding as an empathetic movement not childhating,parent hating group
So, let me get this straight. You’re part of a group of people that thinks that to be alive is suffering, and that death is such a scary thing that you forgo reproducing in order to not have your children “suffer.”
Also the way you phrase it makes it seem like you think you’re doing something heroic by choosing not to have kids. But to be fair, maybe you are, if you don’t enjoy life, why would you bring more people into it and ruin their lives.
Furthermore, why are you people so scared of death? If death is inevitable, what’s the point of living your life in fear of it? The way most people go about things is acceptance, I just don’t understand. Not trying to sound overly combative, as I’m genuinely curious and honestly fascinated.
>No one has ever lived on Mars because it will kill you immediately.
Not really. You could perfectly survive on Mars with a space suit.
>Therefore earth cannot be the deadliest planet.
I'm going to say it once last time.
It's the deadliest, not because it's dangerous, but because there is life on it. It's a r/technicallytrue. Earth is the only planet we know that has life on it, therefore it's the only planet where living being die. When people die on it, it's deadly. Making earth the deadliest. It's a joke, a sophism.
One of the fuckers decided that the best tactic when losing an argument was to report me as needing mental health help.
Arbitrum $ARB approve Airdrop New. Release 20.02.23To pick up you need to visit their official web site, connect your wallet, go to the bridge section and make any exchange through their bridge Release 20.02.23 https://twitter.com/Weerapat\_th/status/1627361092908244992
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Using AI to Rebrand and Effectively Spread AN Messages that have Lasting Impact: A Semi-GuideI always felt the name "*Stop Having Kids*" sounded very off-putting, forceful, and condescending.
If we are ever going to get people to even listen to our message, we need to remove any and all barriers to entry, because, let's be honest, they already have enough reasons to not listen to us as it is.
Let's not give them any more sticks to add to the fire.
To this point, IMO, leading AN activitsm groups like *SHK* need a serious rebranding if they are ever going to have the impact they seek.
Even their black color scheme overtones in their signs, webpages and ads seem so dark and sinister - which, to their credit, is likely what they are going for since the topic at hand (life and suffering) *is* rather dark and sinister. I get it. I get it.
But ultimately it subconsciously prevents many people from *at least* hearing ANs out, let alone not getting triggered immediately once they do.
It is, after all, the same color choice as ISIS (which is where my brain subconsciously goes whenever I see a dominant black color scheme like this one. No one else? No? Okay, maybe just me).
Personally, if I were a natalist, I would roll my eyes, let out a loud *pffffffft,* and easily push away the command-centered, self-righteous tone that many of the SHK activists tend to embody. (Let me be clear, I am not saying *all*, I am just saying *many.* I've also heard many natalists echo the same sentiments).
I'm sure there are other AN groups out there that have a different style of branding than *SHK* that is perhaps very effective. But I'm using *SHK* as an example since they are the most visible in the public eye from what I have seen and have arguably the most influence.
None of it communicates to the viewer: "Hey, we hear you. But we have a different line of thinking, give us a few moments of your time to welcome in a different perspective."
I think back to when Abraham Lincoln famously said (paraphrasing) that in order to bring people over to a particular side or point of view, you need truthful and accurate information in a way that your audience can understand, but just as importantly, I believe he went on to say, they need to be able to *relate* to you.
In other words, you will never win people over unless you *meet them where they are* in terms of their beliefs and perspectives.
"I am just like you. I don't like suffering. I actually love kids. I just have a different idea about how to stop suffering."
It goes without saying, that AN is one of the single greatest and most divisive philosophies for humans to wrap their heads around, since it requires an ugly and hard look at your own egoic desires and selfish reasons for procreation.
Conversations can get divided and heated *very quickly*. We all know this.
We all also know "conversion" (for lack of a better term) is a near impossible task.
Which is why I feel a more effective message would center around having *less* children, and not so much *zero c*hildren, since I think more people can agree to and feel comfortable with that; though there is a case for both, of course.
In other words, you have to choose your battles and strategies wisely.
It's why I believe those of us who feel inspired to take action for change, as a collective, need to center more on the *love* and *anti-suffering e*lement of AN, especially with regards to first impressions.
..................
​
Enter the new AI Revolution.
​
I work in the AI space, so I know just how powerful and effective AI will be at growing businesses and movements at never before seen rates.
"This could *absolutely* apply to AN activist groups and messaging," I thought on my lunch break today.
So, during that break, I decided to ask Chat GPT to generate 21 names that would be great for an AN group.
Here's what it gave. They aren't all zingers, of course, but I thought some of them were actually quite good:
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1. The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
2. Better to Never Have Been
3. Childfree Advocates for Rational Ethics (CARE)
4. No More Humans
5. No More Generations
6. The Pro-Childfree Alliance
7. The Abolition of Procreation Society
8. The Anti-Birth Movement
9. Generation Zero
10. The Life Avoidance League
11. The Child-Free Alliance
12. The Anti-Procreation Society
13. The Reproductive Rights Resistance
14. The Birth Strike Brigade
15. The Childless Liberation Front
16. The Procreation Prohibition Party
17. The Parental Abstinence Advocates
18. The Life Refusers League
19. The No Newborns Movement
20. The Nonprocreative Collective
21. The Wombless Warriors (this one gave me *goosebumps*)
​
I then asked it for 30 slogans:
​
Long form:
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1. "Save the planet: don't procreate."
2. "The future is child-free."
3. "Better to not be born than to suffer."
4. "Antinatalism is pro-compassion."
5. "Be a hero: choose not to reproduce."
6. "Life is not a gift: it's a burden."
7. "Childlessness is a valid choice."
8. "We can't consent to life: antinatalism is the answer."
9. "Overpopulation is a threat to all life."
10. "Less life, more love: choose antinatalism."
​
Short form:
​
1. "Choose not to breed."
2. "Don't pass on the pain."
3. "No more new life."
4. "Anti-kids, pro-humanity."
5. "Life is not a blessing."
6. "The best future is child-free."
7. "Less life, less suffering."
8. "Think before you breed."
9. "Antinatalism: end the cycle."
10. "More life, more problems."
11. Love life, don't create it."
12. "No child, no harm."
13. "Life is not worth the risk."
14. "Not having children is heroic."
15. "Antinatalism: choose compassion."
16. "Pro-choice for all life."
17. "One less child can change the world."
18. "The best birth control is saying no to birth."
19. "Antinatalism: for a better tomorrow."
20. "Be the change: choose not to reproduce."
​
After these prompts, my mind started racing with the endless possibilities of how we can utilize artificial intelligence to gain ground in our fight to end suffering.
I am posting this because I want to encourage those that are either in the midst of organizing an AN activist group or those who already are in one, to seriously consider some of the above suggestions in your messaging.
Perhaps even more importantly, I want others to know that AI programs such as Chat GPT can be used to help hone your messaging to your audience. This can also be applied to vegan, climate change, and other anti-suffering groups you champion as well.
Now.....
...This is the point in the post where I show you how to accomplish this with *free a*nd *easily accessible* AI, like Chat GPT, that can make that challenge a little easier for us. I want us to start thinking about how we can utilize new resources to *really*... *actually*....*seriously* reach more people and get them to listen to us.
The mountain is and always has been very tall for us.
Not to mention, at times, really lonely, too. :(
But now we've got better hiking equipment.
And we need to spread the word about the sheer power of AI, and that now... *NOW!...* we *finally* can gain ground here.
I refuse to believe that we will always be seen as "fringe" thinkers who hate kids, think there is nothing good about life, are suicidal, and who need to "reframe" our mindset in order to qualm the depression and anxiety that life inevitably bitch slaps us with.
Why the fuck are *we* the outcasts??
That's such nonsensical *bullshit!...*and I *refuse* to accept that label.
That's why I'm making this semi-guide post.
Because I know that literally anyone - and I mean *ANYONE -* with an intenet connection and drive for change can use these no-skills-needed tools to easily spread the messaging of David Benatar, form online groups/landing pages and Discord channels for ANs and potential ANs to gather, and digitally spread both original and cited AN thought to the masses.
If you have a better way of accomplishing this, I am all ears. But for now, I think this is the best path forward. At the very least I hope that this post starts a discussion about effective change strategies.
We don't have to just exist in the confines and echo chambers of our beloved AN sub-reddits anymore.
I really mean it... *change is possible.*
Will antinatalism ever be adopted by the mainstream?
Probably fucking not.
Can we utilize artificial intelligence programs to potentially move from 1% of the general demographic to 10%, or even *25%* within our lifetimes?
With proper compassionate messaging and enough people utilizing AI, I *know* we can.
I hope some of you reading this will go online and search different free or cheap AI software that can help you accomplish this goal in an endless variety of ways.
With literally hundreds of new AI powered programs popping up weekly now, it can be hard to keep up with the flow.
Here is a link of an ongoing list of the majority of said programs that can help: [https://favird.com/l/ai-tools-and-applications](https://favird.com/l/ai-tools-and-applications).
I have no affiliation with any of these companies, obviously, since it's simply an ongoing list of the hundreds of apps and SaaS to choose from; but it is important to note that this list was made by an AI enthusiast... some dude I never met who is on the same mission as me to just help get the word out to the public that their voice can *finally be heard*, their vision *more clarified*, and their goals *exponentially* *more attainable* during this newly bestowed AI Revolution.
Many, like me some months ago, just needed to be shown what is possible and where to go for consolidated information.
Now that I've provided that, I hope some of you take it and run with it.
\------
Think about it.
You.
Yes, *you.*
You who made it this far reading my post, can spend a few hours playing around with some of the programs to quickly develop AN landing pages, marketing campaigns, emails to politicians, friends or influencers that you want to introduce to the AN cause.
Here is an example:
Their is software that you can use to extract the text from YouTube videos of anti-natalist influencers, and then you can use another software to consolidate and rephrase that text in any way you want, and then another to spread that information to the masses in a nice and palatable package... and in just *minutes.*
Not days or weeks. *Fucking, minutes!*
And more than likely there's going to be an AI service that comes out that will do all of those tasks at once.
Like, *holy shit!*
You see what I mean?
I guess what I am saying is a*nyone* from *any* socioeconomic background can spread the AN word.
There.
Are.
No.
More.
Excuses.
You can bounce around the AN subreddits and learn about it and make comments here and there and continue to get in heated arguments wiith friends, your parents, internet strangers and every other natalist out there... but what does that actually do? How much ground was actually gained?
More often than not both sides walk away with nothing to show for it except wasted time and a varying degree of bitter resentment that further entrenches them in their pre-argument ideologies.
OR
If you really care about the cause enough, you can use AI to help you *actually do something about it.*
Hell, at the very least Chat GPT can help you generate a variety of solid, Benatar-inspired responses to common natalist objections.
The possibilities are quite literally endless.
\----
Follow me here, as I hammer this down for the final time:
This is our single greatest shot at moving out of the fringe corners of the internet.
With enough people, as a collective, and fueled by the unlimited power of AI, we can get someone to rethink having their third child, take the adoption option more seriously, or, in some cases, even completely commit to not having children.
Once upon a time, I was one of those people.
I was well into my 30s, having teetered back and forth on the idea of a child-free life, when I randonly came across this sub one night.
I'll never forget the first time I read your posts, dissected your arguments, felt your shared pain, read your posted articles, and eventually understood your philosophy and cause deeply.
It only took about a month into reading everything in this sub that I made the sound and now obvious decision to fully commit to not having a child.
What if they're were a way to consolidate all of that information, package it in a compassionate way, and get it in front of as many people who, like former me, constantly go back and forth on the idea of procreation? Just that demographic alone would be worth all the effort.
All I needed was the right information coming from the right people.
Just like Abraham Lincoln said.
I am sure there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people that, like me, live in this child-free mindset limbo.
I know that if we can at least find a way to get them the right information and resources in a *non-aggressive* way that lacks even the faintest hint of a *self-righteously condescending* tone, we will help them make a decision that they can stand firm in, which will help them eliminate the hellscape that is existing in the mental ambiguity of such a major life decision.
Many of us have been there. We know that feeling all too well.
But it doesn't have to be that way for the many that suffer in this manner.
Ultimately, this is the moment where we can finally usher in change that can help prevent hundreds, then thousands, and then hundreds of thousands and even *millions* of people from being born and having to suffer through existence.
Then, when you count in the countless offspring that those people would have had, then....well, let's just say if Mother Earth had arms, she would give you one *ginormous* hug of gratitude.
And you...
....*YOU*....my dear reader of this long post, can be the much needed hero to Mother Earth and the yet to be.
​
Even as I type this out, I wonder if anyone will actually heed my advice and do something with this information.
I like to imagine that at least a few of you will, and that brings a smile to my face. :)
The thought gives me a selfish, quick rush of feel-good dopamine as I imagine another child who won't have to go through a years-long battle with cancer; another teenage girl who won't get raped and form severe PTSD that leads to a life plagued with an alphabet soup of mental disorders; the soldier who didn't have to become a POW in a war he didn't want to fight in to begin with; or the twice divorced middle-aged man with a bottle of whiskey in his belly and a gun in his mouth, wondering for the last time how, after living a life filled with money, status, "safety," material possessions, and even a family to love, still somehow left him so unbearably depressed that he is now about to do one of the bravest yet most tragic things that a human can do - remove himself from existence and thrust himself into the Great Unknown.
All because his mommy and daddy thought it would be so nice to have cute kids running around the house.
That's how powerful and unpredictable life and suffering is.
None of us can escape it.
But we don't have to escape that which doesn't exist.
Which is why I spend a good deal of my suffering-filled life to fight for non-existence.
And it is my sincere hope that some of you will join me in that quest.
\-------------------------------------
P.S.
There were *soooo* many Chat GPT suggestions above that I loved, and many more that it generated and I didn't post, but if I were to form an AN group, this is the combo I would choose:
*No More Humans*
One less child can change the world
​
\*\*\* Feel free to let me know which combo you would choose, or... *even better:* use Chat GPT on your own and post some new name/slogan combos in the comments. I'd love to see those! \*\*\*
​
\------------------------------------------
​
TL;DR: Use AI to rebrand and/or spread the AN message for most effective impact. Link in body of text for resources to help accomplish that. LFG!
I guess life is a debt we owe our parents
I was just banned from witches v patriarchy for responding to someone’s open discussion on antinatalism. I was to the point, simple, no meanness at all. Apparently being kind means sugarcoating. The mod is probably a triggered natalist lol.
I was just banned from witches v patriarchy for responding to someone’s open discussion on antinatalism. I was to the point, simple, no meanness at all. Apparently being kind means sugarcoating. The mod is probably a triggered natalist lol.
The worst thing one could do to their children is have them
I traumatized my daughter and now I think she owes me because I can't take responsibility. Just why????
I traumatized my daughter and now I think she owes me because I can't take responsibility. Just why????
[stickers in my shop](https://www.tradstickydesign.com/product-page/in-this-economy-sticker-1) if you’d like to grab some 🥹💖
Um even on r/childfree they don’t allow posts that have hatred towards children, it’s even in the rules.
Check Cosmic Prison on yt about MGTOW Antinatalism.
It's funny how people who don't have to suffer consequences want to...
Soooooo…You guys are all just going to die with no offspring?
Edit: thanks for the honesty!
Be fruitful and multiplyGo out unto the nations be fruitful and multiply
Be fruitful and multiplyGo out unto the nations be fruitful and multiply
Antinatalism is not anti childrenGo to child free reddit sub or literally anywhere else like offmychest. I’ve seen too many “if you like kids get off this sub” like they don’t even know what antinatalist is they’re just spewing shit out their mouths and agreeing with each other. They completely changed the meaning of what this page is supposed to be about.
Kids do not consent to be alive. Kids rely solely on their environment growing up to teach them things. So if you’re in a comment section commenting about how dumb kids are, calling them slurs… you literally look and are acting…. Like a child. Like someone who didn’t learn emotional intelligence … which you’re supposed to learn as a kid.
You all are just calling yourselves out at this point. I don’t care if you don’t like kids or don’t like to be around them (it’s probably just because you relate to them a lil too much) but go talk about it somewhere else. No one cares. Private message each other slurs. At this point you probably already do. Unjoin this sub though on the way there :) you aren’t welcomed!
Hmu for a course on gambling, I accept BTC. 3KzwevyNTMtqL8GnMP8PiJTzxHieCw59Te$30 gambling course…
Yes thank you to everybody in this sub Reddit, your non-existent babies are thanking you for not being raised by such lunatics. Doing the lords work.
Debate A NatalistIs anyone available and interested in debating the topic of antinatalism (through VC, for my YouTube)? I favor the responsible spread of the human species as one of the several ways to reduce suffering and increase wellbeing worldwide. I’m specially interested in debating other vegans who think that veganism somehow entails being an antinatalist, but I’ll debate anyone who’s interested.
PS: I’m not interested in having text debates, so only respond to this if you’re interested in having a voice chat debate that will be recorded. Also, let’s please keep everything in good faith.
Sure! I just have a small YT channel where I mostly just post my veganism debates. Here it is: https://youtube.com/c/HMTorres
You obviously have no idea how depression works. I won’t entertain this conversation any longer.
Life is goodIf you’re depressed, please seek help.
Life is goodIf you’re depressed, please seek help.
Why are the breeders here?The title is simple enough. I don't go anywhere near breeder spaces. What do they want besides to shit on us for our choice? There are plenty of other options for breeders. Why are the breeders here?
[ Removed by Reddit ]
My mom said if she got pregnant she would kill herself because of how I turned out. Tell me she don’t regret not using a condom.
Poor people don't like to hear that they give their children the same poor bad life that their parents gave them
Poor people don't like to hear that they give their children the same poor bad life that their parents gave them
My mom telling me at 36 that I’m running out of time to have children and complete my life.
My mom telling me at 36 that I’m running out of time to have children and complete my life.
Do have kids
Do have kids
Had a chat with an online friend about his new babyI'd gone a bit silent and he dropped me a message to check up on me. Very kind of him. After some back and forth I asked him how the new baby was doing.
And he just said that he wishes he could go back to his old life, before the baby. Everyone else around him is just so in love with this kid yet he's just full of regret. I feel kinda sad, but it was their choice to have a child and yet he's somehow surprised that life changes and that you're no longer you're own person. Probably one for r/regretfulparents but it just reinforced my views that THIS exact reason is why I'm never having kids. And I don't know why he's shocked this has happened.
I like my life, doing things on my own terms. Buy a new guitar, go on holiday with no special dispensations. Play video games til 2am. The hell would I want to give that up.
you can end your life any time you want to.
Nice try noodlecock but we all know you wouldnt be able to have kids anyway
Lololol I love how desperate and depressed you guys are making this world so much easier for me to conquer lolol good luck on your boring life
Celebrities and rich can overpopulate because they have money 🙄.
Celebrities and rich can overpopulate because they have money 🙄.
Who will take care of us when we’re old?Serious question, truly not trying to antagonize as I don’t think anyone who doesn’t want kids should have them.
But, if you’re completely anti-birth for everyone (not just yourself), is the expectation that the human race will just die out? In that case, are you worried that your old age will be miserable because there will be no new doctors or caretakers to help? Everyone will just be old and die painfully?
Really trying to understand what this is all about. Please don’t come at me l.
Is there a subreddit that's the opposite of r/childfree or r/antinatalism or r/regretfulparent?Antinatalism and childfree lifestyle is natural to me, it just makes sense in every way. However, I do try to go out of my way to hear the opposing views in an effort to make sure I'm not stuck in an echo-chember that I wasn't unaware of.
Is there a subreddit where people share, honestly, the joys of parenthood and how wonderful it is, and how they're glad to be a parent?
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What makes people go “Omg, AGAIN”So I just woke up and opened instagram to see a very pregnant Rihanna. Yesterday I saw other 2 girls who got pregnant AGAIN with a second child after a year or so of having the first one.
I was just wondering: life with kids can t be wonderful or peaceful. What the fuck makes you wanna go through pregnancy and stress again?
* In Rihanna’s case it s gonna be much easier, I know. I am talking abt normal folks mostly
What makes people go “Omg, AGAIN”So I just woke up and opened instagram to see a very pregnant Rihanna. Yesterday I saw other 2 girls who got pregnant AGAIN with a second child after a year or so of having the first one.
I was just wondering: life with kids can t be wonderful or peaceful. What the fuck makes you wanna go through pregnancy and stress again?
* In Rihanna’s case it s gonna be much easier, I know. I am talking abt normal folks mostly
I am a “breeder” ask me anything.Pretty self explanatory really, I just saw a lot of people wondering about us.
The only things people should be concerned with Is A peaceful exit
Antinatalist vs society argument in a nutshell
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
We’ve heard you. We’ve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone — for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed — but we trust that the changes we’re implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, we’ve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency — an explicit philosophy, even — to “let the downvotes do their thing” by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
• Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules — regardless of whether we wish they are — remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the sub’s continued existence here on Reddit.
• Further to this we have added a new rule: “Content should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.” This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isn’t explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isn’t obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
– Before explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.”
– After explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I don’t think it’s inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates won’t necessarily relieve them of moral burden.”
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (we’re one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isn’t the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you haven’t a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try ‘round. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, I’m antinastylist. I’ve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20’s. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. I’m pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation – in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different “brand” of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (無生殖協会/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term “antinatalism,” but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isn’t or shouldn’t be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We haven’t seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
We’ve heard you. We’ve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone — for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed — but we trust that the changes we’re implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, we’ve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency — an explicit philosophy, even — to “let the downvotes do their thing” by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
• Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules — regardless of whether we wish they are — remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the sub’s continued existence here on Reddit.
• Further to this we have added a new rule: “Content should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.” This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isn’t explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isn’t obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
– Before explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.”
– After explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I don’t think it’s inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates won’t necessarily relieve them of moral burden.”
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (we’re one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isn’t the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you haven’t a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try ‘round. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, I’m antinastylist. I’ve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20’s. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. I’m pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation – in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different “brand” of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (無生殖協会/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term “antinatalism,” but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isn’t or shouldn’t be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We haven’t seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
I am so pleased with my purchase.
Touché
Well, allow me to introduce you to /r/Collapse and the reason why degrowth is required. These two subs have a lot of overlap of followers.
You see, time is running out. In a million ways. And that sub is chockablock full of alarm bells and examples of why our time is much much shorter than we thought even 5 years ago.
You say degrowth is short hand solution, but in my view, for our species to even consider survival, particularly in parity with other species on this earth it's REQUIRED. The Limits to Growth study back in 1972 (which has had a number of recent re-examinations) holds up remarkably well, but it didn't/couldn't even really factor in climate change and the devestation.
To your last point, no. It def won't. Humans are entirely too selfish, too horny, too stupid, and too instinctual to stop making babies. But this is the philosophy I choose regardless.
Someone who is a hedonist might subscribe to hedonism but doesn't expect literally every person to follow it. Same with stoics. Or Marxists. The philosophies are just useful tools to explain how you see the world, and those ARE short hand for not having to redescribe everything to everyone.
Cruel to whom? To the parents? How about the child? Or is it like getting a cat for you?
Would you wish to be born ugly? Especially if you knew that your parents knew what you were gonna look like. Would you wanna be born with Down syndrome or dwarfism? Or debilitating genetic disease like MLS?
Like do you natalists have any concern for the wellbeing of the freaking child??? Or right to procreate is more sacred than the actual child being brought to existence?
>>Shirt source..... www.craftedarts.live/death-is-coming-1
If you believe that nonsense, why haven't you self terminated yet?
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why do parents insist on bring babies to adult only spaces? found on FB.
why do parents insist on bring babies to adult only spaces? found on FB.
Crazy bitch needs to be shamed. Wtf is her problem?!
i make these myself [buttons in my shop if you want one!🙌🏼](https://www.tradstickydesign.com/product-page/say-no-to-kids-button-pin)
If i were the kid my parents would have offered to take both of us in or at least let me stay. Having more people in thw house is actually really beneficial to everyone. More chores get done and we have more income to spend onbgrceries collectively.
I'll never understand...
The Recent History of Antinatalism Online
Welp, we finally did itWe ended up on r/blatantmisogyny. Because of the post of the pregnant woman with a tinder profile. I saw the post myself, and it isn't even pretending to be antinatalist. Just a pregnant woman with the title "lmao". All the profile says is that she's pregnant and wants to date. For a second I thought I was looking at an incel sub. Then I realized it was us.
I've been clinging onto this sub for awhile because it was what first introduced me to the philosophy of antinatalism. But it's clear now that our ideals are not the same. Maybe if the mods cared enough to get rid of misogynistic content, then people wouldn't be leaving in droves.
Well, so long.
Hi there,
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LMAO 😂😂
LMAO 😂😂
a
Then why don’t you kill yourself (get some help (like actually))
On today's episode of "dumb shit breeders say" we have...... whatever kind of argument this was supposed to be
As a society we should stop having children and adopt Pit bulls. No child would get hurt again if there is no child to be hurt! Do you part, Reddit Nation! ✊🏽
This exact poll was posted here. I posted it in r/polls and these are the resultsSimilarly, there is a large amount of people voting no as there was here.
I am thankful that I was bornFor some reason, this subreddit was recommended to me.
I am looking forward to having children in the future.
Even though my life had its up and downs, I can say that living life is something worthwhile.
I don't believe that by bringing more humans to Earth, we are 'destroying' it (although we are altering it).
I mean, if an asteroid came and hit Earth today and sliced it in half to make other planets, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Earth would simply become a different atomical structure.
Can you explain to me why people are so attached to the idea of antinatalism?
yo wtf wrong with you mfs what kinda cognitive dissonance is this (cocaine bear because it's perfect)
y'all are sad as fuck. I hope you all can mentally recover from the amount of retardation here.Thats all, you fuckin weirdos.
y'all are sad as fuck. I hope you all can mentally recover from the amount of retardation here.Thats all, you fuckin weirdos.
Let me answer ur question then: we "breeders" are here to laugh at your hilariously pathetic and sad subreddit of mega incels
If people didnt breed your useless and sad ass wouldnt exist, the title of this sub is genuinely the best joke ive seen this month.
Honestly this is more of an issue with current attitude of not being able to beat a brat of a kid than having one
then again, not having one fixes that problem before it is conceived
Bruh India has plenty of problems with laws and rights, but THATS NOT WHY IT HAS SO MANY PEOPLE. India has so many people because its one of the oldest living civilisation, is in tropical regions, has great topography, and has one of the most fertile plains in the world.
Ik I’m gonna get mega downvoted but like, do you guys even believe in morals? Like if there is no god why have any morals? Or do you guys have some sort of god that guides you?
agree
Do they reproduce just for attention and free shit?
Why should someone as negative, pessimistic, lazy and pathetic as yourself deserve to be treated as anything else? God this whole subreddit is full of insane people who are just wallowing in their own shitty lives. It’s truly sad.
Anything can happen at anytime best to just commit and end it urself instead of natural causes right?
Good thing you’ll get hit by a car lol
My brother wants to live forever.all of you will die. lol.
and so will my degenerate brother. he doesn’t need to worry about how many kids he can have because no women would want him anyway. something that he will accomplish with his pathetic life is killing himself because he realizes that he is all alone.
This was a constructive and fun time.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Penises look like cannons. Just a coincidence???
Want more reasons to use protection? I got one for you right here! (This is called Fetus in Fetu I believe, Google at your own risk)
I'll 100% reject your idea, that women are the #1 perpetrators. Everyone knows of the potential risks and consequences of sex, men and women alike. Taking men out of the equation and shifting the focus to women is the worst possible way to go about it.
Do you agree, that this sub unintentionally promotes misogynyScrolling down just for a couple of seconds and you realize, that the vast majority of criticism is directed towards mothers or soon-to-be-mothers.
The iconography is simple, as precreation is mostly associated with pregnancy. But not only are men underrepresented in being the culprits of procreation, it causes an disproportional amount of hate to be solely directed towards women.
Do you agree? If not please share your thoughts.
Literally
Hi there,
Thank you for posting in the Subreddit. However, we are removing this post based on the fact that it does not promote discussion or debate surrounding Antinatalism.
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Calling all nihilistic neckbeard losersMade you look.
Calling all nihilistic neckbeard losersMade you look.
you guys are fucking stupid and this sub is retarded
>it would be better, all things being equal, if this happened sooner rather than later for, the sooner it happens, the more suffering and misfortune will be avoided.
Also, the sooner is happens, the more joy and ecstasy (which humans are also capable of) will be avoided.
Again, prove that the two do not cancel each other out.
I am not saying they do, I am saying nobody knows if they do. Your, and this d-bag Benetar's, arguments are based on the tacit assumption that the extant suffering and misfortune inherent in human life are NOT counteracted by other consensus realities, such as purpose, meaning, or joy.
This is not logically sound, and never will be.
DO NOT announce to the sub when you are going to masturbate.
This has been a reoccurring issue, and I’m not sure why some people have
such under-developed social skills that they think that a server full
of mostly male strangers would need to know that.
No one is going to be impressed and
give you a high-five (especially considering where that hand has been). I
don’t want to add this to the rules, since it would be embarrassing for
new users to see that we have a problem with this, but it is going to
be enforced as a rule from now on.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
As a Muslim this sub hurts my brainAs the tittle said, I am a Muslim. I believe in one creator (Allah) and I believe in the prophets that said creator sent. I also believe this life is a test to determine if we are eligible to enter paradise.
I have reasons to believe this for more than just spiritual reasons. There are multiple verses in the Quran that have been scientifically proven over a millennia later after we got more technologically advanced.
For instance in chapter 23 (the believer) verse 12-14 “And indeed, We created humankind from an extract of clay, then placed each ˹human˺ as a sperm-drop in a secure place, then We developed the drop into a clinging clot ˹of blood˺, then developed the clot into a lump ˹of flesh˺, then developed the lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, then We brought it into being as a new creation. So Blessed is Allah, the Best of Creators.”
This talks about the different stages of child development in the womb. This was discovered with ultrasound to be precisely how the Quran describes it to be (minus the clay part).
This is one small part of why I believe this book to be the word of Allah. If you want more examples I have plenty more
Now some of you are probably thinking “well religion changes constantly to match the current world” and you’re right, most religions do. Except Islam. We have 3 main ways to prove it has been unchanged for 1400+ years.
1) the oral tradition. Today there are millions of people who can recite the Quran from the beginning to end without ever looking at the text.
2) the unbroken chain of narration. During the life of the prophet (pboh) he had disciples who wrote the Quran (because the prophet was illiterate) and what the prophet did. These disciples then had disciples who wrote down what they did as well as what their disciples were doing and who they were. This continues until present day.
3) this is my favourite one. In the university of Birmingham there is a Quran from the life of the prophet that has been carbon dated and confirmed to be around the time of the prophet.
I wrote this entire thing to not have to explain myself over and over again
Now that we got the basics out of the way explain to me why having children is morally wrong
This is proof you just hate your own life. This is not a philosophy. It is called being emo or depressed.
This is proof you just hate your own life. This is not a philosophy. It is called being emo or depressed.
This is proof you just hate your own life. This is not a philosophy. It is called being emo or depressed.
How does everyone feel about thisIf reddit and this subreddit existed back in the days of your parents and they, just like you agreed with it, you wouldn't exist. How do you feel about that?
Not hating BTW
r/LostRedditors
My most favorite one🧡🧡
This you?
this sub is just kids who are angry at their parents or adults with a savior complex.It's the greatest grab your popcorn sub I've come across lmao.
when it’s their own damn fault that they got knocked down after doing something retarded? yeah no sympathy for that little fuckwit
HEY MODS, WAKE THE FUCK UP.
>Lord knows this freakin' country needs it
r/USdefaultism much?
You can't be fully AN if you are not for forced sterilization of humans and forced termination of pregnancy. If you are against these things you place the decision of the parents over the life of the nonconsenting childs.
megamind
This subreddit is a hell hole of depressed and hateful individuals. Not surprised at their hostility since their whole ideology is based on how miserable their life is and instead of trying to make their own lives better they attack others and try to ruin theirs.
do you also need me to explain why the sky looks blue?
it's obvious you ask in bad faith considering the circumstances and topic. confirmed by your many posts in r/antifeminists.
it's not too late for abortion
Dudes im confused hereAren’t you guys born? You guys are organisms right? I just came here so please spare me but this subreddit is about having children is wrong. So why do you guys exist?
Edit: holy crap I did not know I would get such angry replies??? Im leaving dudes spare my notifications
Can the mods please ban this fucking post and stop letting natalists post in here? PLEASE.
Oh my god, you're a pussy
Get these incel types out of here. Women and food and money are all a commodity in life? Women are humans you weirdos
hmm does it feel right?
This is a strange groupI come from a suggested post but this a really edgy group isnt it?
I get it, you guys are suffering and you dont want kids. Thats super duper legitimate. Fuck them kids.
But by the nature of the philisophy "antinatalism" has an expiration date. Unless one of you takes one for the team and poops a kid out, your view of the world is gonna vanish.
Someone needs to designate a more temperate antinatalist to be a breeder lol.
Society cares more about keeping people alive than ensuring they have enjoyable livesIt just goes to show that we are little more than animals at the end of the day, forever trapped in tne so-called "Circle of Life". Those at the top of the food chain need us alive so that they can continue to exploit us. The state doesn't care about you, mental health professionals don't care about you, few people actually do. Even your own parents cared more about the joy they would experience by conceiving a child than all the suffering you would probably hav to endure.
It really makes me wonder if theres something wrong with me for hating life or with other people for enjoying it. They have collectively brainwashed themselves into believing that life has some kind of purpose and that they should pass on their (often awful) genetics in order to fulfill that purpose. It's all one massive cope. I mean, would it really be that bad if the human race went extinct? We are all going to return to nothing one day whether we want to or not, so why does it matter?
The fact that we imprison people in hospitals and medicate/gaslight them until they develop the will to live is straight-up inhumane to me. I've even seen people who have basically deteriorated into vegetables due to some life-threatening neurological disease like Huntington's kept alive by their families just for the sake of being kept alive. Nobody cares that the poor individual is suffering on a daily basis.
As a Muslim this sub hurts my brainAs the tittle said, I am a Muslim. I believe in one creator (Allah) and I believe in the prophets that said creator sent. I also believe this life is a test to determine if we are eligible to enter paradise.
I have reasons to believe this for more than just spiritual reasons. There are multiple verses in the Quran that have been scientifically proven over a millennia later after we got more technologically advanced.
For instance in chapter 23 (the believer) verse 12-14 “And indeed, We created humankind from an extract of clay, then placed each ˹human˺ as a sperm-drop in a secure place, then We developed the drop into a clinging clot ˹of blood˺, then developed the clot into a lump ˹of flesh˺, then developed the lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, then We brought it into being as a new creation. So Blessed is Allah, the Best of Creators.”
This talks about the different stages of child development in the womb. This was discovered with ultrasound to be precisely how the Quran describes it to be (minus the clay part).
This is one small part of why I believe this book to be the word of Allah. If you want more examples I have plenty more
Now some of you are probably thinking “well religion changes constantly to match the current world” and you’re right, most religions do. Except Islam. We have 3 main ways to prove it has been unchanged for 1400+ years.
1) the oral tradition. Today there are millions of people who can recite the Quran from the beginning to end without ever looking at the text.
2) the unbroken chain of narration. During the life of the prophet (pboh) he had disciples who wrote the Quran (because the prophet was illiterate) and what the prophet did. These disciples then had disciples who wrote down what they did as well as what their disciples were doing and who they were. This continues until present day.
3) this is my favourite one. In the university of Birmingham there is a Quran from the life of the prophet that has been carbon dated and confirmed to be around the time of the prophet.
I wrote this entire thing to not have to explain myself over and over again
Now that we got the basics out of the way explain to me why having children is morally wrong
They live in their own shit
Omg I dunno if you are in r/therapists but we have been discussing this at length lately.
10/10
Or maybe they were as homeless as she was, you retarded godless dogs, I hope you all die
Why don't you just adopt, at this point the universe is sending you a message
Because they want spread own genes maybe.
Except the "new slaves for the system", the viewpoint of the kid is a bit overlooked here.
A little but of humour.
Antinatalism in Russia | Roma
Which side of antinatalism are you on ? (Natalists should have the right to reproduce vs they shouldn’t)Rights to your rights ? Or no rights to your rights if they interfere with the rights of others (children for example)
Should natalists be able to simply choose not to have kids on their own without being forced (team free will, even if their use of free will impacts the free will of their potential kids) or should they be forced to not have kids.
Should they have the right to reproduction even though you disagree with it, or should they not have the right at all (stop reproduction by any means necessary)
I’m on the semi radical side of things and I just wanna know who else is. If it was up to me..people would not be able to have kids.
Hot take : I feel like human rights to reproduction are less important than the compromised rights of the potential kid when they’re born into this world.
Lurker for sometime. came across this and turned my stomach. first the post, and then you don’t have to go deep into the comments. absolutely awful. What a world, the parents choose it, and then.
Ask me anything:I am an natalist, and I wasn't quite sure or knew that people even thought having children were wrong.
I want to know more about your beliefs, and I want you to understand mine.
Please be respectful when asking questions.
Thank you!
Scary thing i saw here 🫣🫣😳ive seen quite a lot people here say like they don't plan anything for retirement and if they can't sustain themselves, they'll "just unalive" in this case
uhmm this is very strange to me 🤔 are these people serious? 😳 it's easy to say how you will "just unalive" yourself when youre like 30+ years away from this moment X ☘️
but will you actually be able to carry out when you actually get to this point? 🫣
i guess more probably at this point you will be feeling like "😭 i wish i had a more solid plan, saved more money, etc. etc. 😭😭 now my life is so miserable and I don't have the strength to unalive myself 😭"
hug🤗🤗🌻🌻🥰
ConfusedSo I only just recently heard about antinatalism, and to be honest my first thought was that people who believe in this must all be weirdos.
“How can you be against life, or the creation of it at least.”
Obviously, that’s not fair of me to assume, which is why I came here to try and understand this point of view, but from what I’ve read, a lot of the belief here is that “I didn’t ask to be born, I’m going to kill myself at some point, there’s no reason for humanity.” Don’t get me wrong, I understand not wanting children (I certainly don’t), and having suicidal thoughts, but I’d never say I’m against birth because of my feelings.
It’s my belief that although I never asked to be born, I’m here, so I’ll suck it up and try, even though it seems pointless , to make each day worth it.
But what are your thoughts, why do you believe in antinatalism, and am I wrong in what I think antinatalism is (probably)?
The breeders are unhinged.
I think I found this sub at the right timeSo, for context, I'm female.
Today I've been having very, very strong urges to go to my boyfriend and say, "Let's marry and try for a kid!"
It's an intense battle with myself because I have to remember these feelings are just nature doing its thing, not how I *actually* feel or want for myself.
I *do not* agree with his parenting style. I *do not* trust this man. And most of all, it is *cruel* to bring life into this world. Who the hell am I to force someone else to be alive? That's not fair.
Please, I just need likeminded people to remind me of this, and encourage me to stay strong. To not give in to nature. It's highly appreciated. BF thinks it's "just a phase" that I'll grow out of since I'm in my early 20s. I need him to be wrong. I need to remember that he's wrong.
relation trauma and antinatalismhey,
I'm curious about the relationship between having past trauma expierence and antinatalism. I suspect that a lot of people here had lots of trauma/or still suffer from the impact it had.
I think thats almost impossible to end the suffering. I think we all have to accept the painful existance so far and i think people with trauma are smart enough to know, that they carry something. Just my thoughts.
This is a strange groupI come from a suggested post but this a really edgy group isnt it?
I get it, you guys are suffering and you dont want kids. Thats super duper legitimate. Fuck them kids.
But by the nature of the philisophy "antinatalism" has an expiration date. Unless one of you takes one for the team and poops a kid out, your view of the world is gonna vanish.
Someone needs to designate a more temperate antinatalist to be a breeder lol.
I agree. Pakistan is right in wanting to nuke India! Do it Pakistan! I'm saying this and I don't even care for mohamedans (moslim islamics).
Envy.
and people like that will still ask me why i don't want kids
You and your countrymen should be ashamed
India is a dirty shithole
[ Removed by Reddit ]
The recent adaptation of Jeffrey Dahmer's life explored this well. The dad, Lionel, was constantly questioning whether he made the right choices in raising Jeffrey the way he did, what he could have done more, where he went wrong. At one point he identifies that he himself had violent thoughts before he brought Jeffrey into the world, and wonders if he passed those tendencies down to his son.
The point is that he will never know, and the only sure-fire way that he could have prevented Jeffrey from doing what he did, was by not bringing him into existence in the first place.
I'm happy that you care for insects, most people don't seem to understand why that is important. r/insectsuffering
A lot of shows are rife with natalist garbage dialogue. It's not saying much.
It's almost as if they want to be commended for it.
Is more difficult to have a dog than raise a child?(Sorry if bad English, I am not a native English speaker)
In Spain, you have to make a obligatory course in order to have a dog, cat, etc, but you need nothing to be able to have a child, if my environment is good or bad doesn't care, if I am able to raise that child properly doesn't care, you don't have to know what to do in concrete cases, not everyone is able to have a dog but everyone can have a child.
I think that is ridiculous.
New person here, got a questionHello, I find the idea of antinatalism very interesting, though I have some questions.
First of all, why do you believe in it?
How universal or personal is it, as in, should everyone believe in it?
How does the biological aspect, that we have to reproduce, in your view weight? Additionally, does it even conflict? A nihilist may say „Well, theoratically there is no point in reproducing in the first place!“
Thank you.
The existence of Hell is the perfect reason not to procreate. I was raised in church, and not one person encouraged me to think seriously about hell before having children. Why not?Bottom line: If you believe eternal torment is a possible outcome for your offspring, you have no business birthing children into this world.
Good for her :D
STOP REPRODUCING YOU ASSHOLES
What the hell kinda place is this?Nvm you guys are straight up assholes. Go fuvk yourselves. I was just curious and I know many people have different answers god damn. Y’all are fucking faggots.
Simpler questionAre you…
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
My curious theory on why you support antinatalism :You are incapable of human love and affection because you are 5”6, look like a dropped pie and cannot attract the gender/sex you’re attracted to. Thus, you resort to this because you’re coping.
Cheers.
Why is natalism wrong but suicide not?if objectively having kids is bad as a society
ie for the planet, workforce etc, why not commit suicide ?
ha ha brown woman womb go brrrrrr
Wtf disgusting racist pig? If you care so much about world kill yourself and your family first.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
literally stfu i do not care that you came in your wife
actually doing something about antinatalismit seems like nobody or at least very few people are going to actually do something about the problem of people being born. does no one plan to forcefully shut down sperm banks? is it not possible to make people infertile through adding chemicals to the water supply? i would hope to see some news on some sort of activism but the antinatalist scene is pretty quiet and that should be changed, the sooner the better. is this a problem from lack of direction? or are the people here not willing to take the legal risk?
actually doing something about antinatalismit seems like nobody or at least very few people are going to actually do something about the problem of people being born. does no one plan to forcefully shut down sperm banks? is it not possible to make people infertile through adding chemicals to the water supply? i would hope to see some news on some sort of activism but the antinatalist scene is pretty quiet and that should be changed, the sooner the better. is this a problem from lack of direction? or are the people here not willing to take the legal risk?
what's the overall end goal?So I'm a little confused. What is the overall end goal of the antinatalism philosophy/ movement because the only end i can see happening if it became widely accepted is the eventual extinction of all life on earth. Is there more that I'm not seeing or is that just it?
so why don’t you personally commit to it?
Shut the fuck up you dumb bitch! I’m glad you know what sub this is, because you sound like a crazy cunt. Stop talking to me crazy person
Kys it's just Darwinism at this point that pigs like you won't reproduce
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Idaho student murdersYet another reason in a long list of reasons to NOT have children. Imagine sending your kid off to college just for them to be murdered brutally by a fucking psychopath for no reason. Imagine all the suffering caused not only for the parents, but for the four people who died as well. Imagine the pain of having a knife plunged into you repeatedly over and over again, I honestly can't even begin to imagine.This world is simply not an ideal place to bring a child into and I don't know what it's going to take for people to see that. It's so disgusting when people say "but bad things happen all the time" like it's nothing and they just accept it and continue the cycle. The gamble just isn't worth it, it needs to STOP.
India is a shithole
Examples and cases of antinatalist couples raising adopted kidsHi there,
Where can I find real stories of antinatalist couples deciding to adopt and actually doing it?
I would like some stories of encouragement. This is a goal of mine, and it is proving to be rather difficult for my situation. I am still wanting to do it, but envisioning and watching real life examples will definitely empower me more.
Thank you!
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
Right? My childhood was fine. I just so happen to care about the wellbeing of others and want to prevent more people from suffering. What that has to do with our childhood is beyond me.
You don't think people having kids is bad. You hate the world, your own childhood, your self, or some combination. Grow up.Title.
Edit: Forgot to add, you might also hate the potential partners who rejected you or your friends and loved ones who found partners and had kids while you didn't.
So people shouldn’t care about their grandchildren?
How is maintaining / improving the condition of the world for the purpose of handing down a healthy world to our descendants a bad thing?
This sub is the epitome of weakness, negativity, and giving up. Yes, the world has problems. Instead of "let's fix it," y'all say, "welp, let's just all die out then." Pathetic that anyone thinks this is "philosophy."Title.
I’m just gonna leave this right here…
Fuck you, you old weird negative pseudo-intellectual spreading eugenicist-adjacent philosophies on a website full of young impressionable people.
How's that for respect :)
Your beliefs are not logical. They are spiritual in nature, negative, and pernicious.
New to this concept as a wholeSo I'm new to the concept of antinatalism, and I'm a bit confused. Is the goal of antinatalism to just...slowly wipe ourselves out to prevent suffering at a sort of grand scale? If everyone who wished for a child adopted instead and the birthrate just dropped to zero this very moment, would that meet the goal? Is it an inherently bad thing that humanity exists? That any of us exist? I'm not trying to troll or anything by any means, I'm just really confused about how all of this works.
This sub is bullshit.Not a single argument pointing out bad parents proves nothing.
Are antinatalist's looking for the human race to die out?I just stumbled across this sub and I'm a little confused/intrigued.
​
I understand that life is hard and some places in the world are not right for bringing up children however the summary of what antinatalism is:
The philosophical belief that having children is morally wrong and cannot be justified.
​
Is this a hard statement? Do supporters want the entire human race to die out in the next 120 years?
​
If so, why?
The horrifying theory of open individualism is the reason I'm an antinatalistAccording to modern theories of the mind there is no self or soul that exists. This means that there isn't a solid, definite 'you' that experiences being 'you'. Instead the sense of self, the sense of being 'you' is a sense a body creates - it's the minds map/model of the body. This means that there is no owner of consciousness - your or miy consciousness isn't owned by anybody. 'We' are the product of this consciousness.
So wherever there is conscious experience happening somewhere it must be experienced. It simply must be experienced - but it won't be experienced by an individual or any person in particular because the 'individual' is the sense of self/identity that a conscious brain pieces together and creates after the fact. A brain that has no owner. The real you is the sensory perception/consciousness that experiences a particular creature. Wherever this sensory perception is, it's you - so every sentient being is being experienced by the same consciousness. It doesn't feel that way because perception can only experience the minds and memories of one brain at a time. Sort of like if you forgot a past experience - it still happened and was experienced even though the experience is not present right now.
Here is an analogy - Imagine if two separate people could have their brains connected so that they could experience being that other person and themselves simultaneously. In this case there would be one consciousness experiencing two sets of memories, experiences, and personalities/moods (being two people at once). It wasn't like there were originally two consciousnesses that became one - but rather the one same consciousness now experiencing the content of two brains/bodies simultaneously.
If you are still confused here is another analogy - imagine someone's brain was separated into two pieces while still inside a body so that there were now 'two' minds in one body. In this case there is still one consciousness but two separate senses of self within the one same body. It would be like having two people with separate experiences and memories in one body. This is already happening right now, just in separate bodies.
This means 'you' and 'I' are every conscious being to ever have existed, currently exist, and will exist forever as long as there is consciousness somewhere in the universe.
Ask yourself, why were you born as you? Why has your whole life been seeing through your set of eyes and not someone else's? It's not because you won the lottery and beat the odds of one to a trillion of existing - it's that the same perception seeing through your eyes and experiencing being the person in the mirror is the same one that has experienced being ever other conscious being ever. There is just one, lone consciousness in the universe that incorrectly thinks it's one of many.
I hope I'm wrong but unless there is some sort of separate individual soul, this appears to be the implications of modern neuroscience.
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Hi! There have been reports that this post is irrelevant to antinatalism and should be removed according to Rule #4 of this subreddit:
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Submissions may be removed at the discretion of moderators if a moderator has requested the submitter to provide an explanation for the relevance of their submission to antinatalism and the submitter has failed to do so within 48 hours.
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>there is NO SUCH THING as being pregnant against your will unless you where raped.
Did she want to be pregnant? Clearly not. **Thus, it was against her will**. Did she want to abort and couldn't? Who fucking knows. But if she did, then she remained pregnant **against her will**.
You act as if she couldn't possibly have used a condom (or hell, she could have even had an IUD that failed, along with a condom that failed) or as if having sex with a stranger carries more of a risk for pregnancy than having sex with a partner (unless you're certain that your partner has had a vasectomy). Even if she had sex unprotected, then that was sex education failing her.
You know what this sounds like? Women not being allowed to have sex without being shamed. I'm not going to sit here and let you promote this incel mentality without calling it out for what it is: *misogyny*. I'm fucking tired of the natalist men who can't get laid pretending to be antinatalists, sitting here ridiculing this woman with you. I can fucking promise you that if these guys could get pussy, they would 100% be pro-babymaking. But they can't, so they use their hateful spite and jealousy to shame women for sleeping with men who aren't them.
And as I said before (which you ignored), **you could have chosen any of the very willing parents to ridicule and encourage others to ridicule (which would still not be ideal), but you chose a woman who never wanted to be pregnant to begin with, and who could have potentially been denied abortion access.**
Not the least bit surprising. Gen X women are the absolute worst. You might find 1 out of 12 who don't belong in a straitjacket.
Why do you believe having children is “Morally Wrong”?I’ve just discovered this sub. The bio says this community is for people that believe having children is “morally wrong”.
Enlighten me!
Why do we always glorify these people?? Producing a child when you have a terminal illness shouldn't be viewed as your "departing gift" to the world. It is not heroic or an act of love to bring a child into the world when you won't even be around to support and take care of them.
First day out of the womb and mom is already exploiting the child and seeking validation that she did a good thing from strangers. I will never understand this mentality.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
So abortion is worse than killing and dumping your baby and putting it in the slot!!??? r/s
My reasons to never have childrenI have taken a rock solid vow to never have a kid and inflict the punishment of existence. I think these are the possible reasons to NOT have a child :
1. Life is mostly full of suffering. There may be methods to alleviate suffering (like the buddhist eightfold path) but the child has to learn them and put intense effort into internalising them. This may take years and yet may not have the desired effect. Also by bringing them into existence aren't parents responsible for atleast a big part of that suffering?
2. It's very very unlikely that the child will do something meaningful like become the next Jeff Bezos or Einstein. Most likely it will just work a meaningless job with bad pay in which it has no interest. Just become another cog in the giant machine of society.
3. There are loads of kids in orphanages that need love and care. Why not adopt them if one needs a child?
4. If one has mental/physical health problems, there is a high chance one may pass it to them.
5. Our world is already overpopulated and biodiversity is collapsing. The last thing it needs is more humans who add major carbon footprint and more needs for food, water, living space.
6. It's a very bad financial decision. If you can't afford to raise a kid, have some shame and don't make it society's problem.
7. If one has a very hectic job, better not have a child than have a child and neglect it. This may lead to major issues with abandonment and low self worth.
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Cabrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
Isn't antinatalism silly because it's just antinatalism for antinatalists?If you want to avoid suffering and stick it to the breeder scum by not breeding, aren't the only people who win breeders? Intelligence, social attitudes and personality traits are all highly heritable. The intelligence of the mother is a far better predictor of a child's intelligence than even things like breastfeeding are, there's only a correlation because low IQ women are so neglectful of their own children they don't even breastfeed them. In Western countries the people who reproduce most are those who are on welfare and have criminal backgrounds, and score poorly on IQ tests.
Wouldn't lots of people who are thoughtful and capable of making lifestyle changes based on the recognition that perhaps life entails more suffering than anything it gives as a return simply result in more people who are violent, thoughtless cretins reproducing? At best, all you are doing is weeding people who are inclined by genetics to hold antinatalist beliefs out of the gene pool, which does less than nothing for the cause of antinatalism.
It's even worse for VHEMT and vegan antinatalists, since they will just die without passing on their genes and some guy called Mutumbo who throws his plastic on the side of the road and eats 50 chickens a year with no regard for their suffering or ability to empathise with them will multiply and fill up the world. The few global north SWPLs who might have had the influence to try and do something all just died out and you're left with people who wanna go fast and live the good life.
You are literally telling people who are predisposed to agreeing with you to reproductively hamstring themselves and going "oh well that's reasonable because it's about individual choice right, it's not coercive?". You are devoting time and effort to making less people agree with you to change the state of the world... somehow. Not to mention that having a giant vegan civilisation with billions of people still has a tremendously deleterious impact on animal life and wild nature (even if the majority of land vertebrates biomass is in livestock right now).
If it's just "oh well I'm making the personal choice to not bring human life into this world and make it suffer" it's still pretty silly. Is this supposed to be some kind of win? I don't get why you don't just unbirth yourself on the spot if you come to the conclusion that this is getting a one-up on the universe. (and personally I do believe that should be people's choice if they want to, since for most people the cons of life really do outweigh the pros and the juice isn't worth the squeeze)
What about the immense amount of suffering that is inherent in complex life on Earth existing anyway? Do you not watch animal planet and try to simulate in your mind what a terrified, un-self-aware creature who has evolved to feel nothing but sheer terror and pain to avoid something it no longer has any hope of avoiding is going through? If you really wanted to be moral about preventing this, you would find a way to salt the entire surface of the Earth with radioactive isotopes so nothing with a nervous system remains alive. Antinatalism to me looks like smugness, spite, complacency, hypocrisy and a one-dimensional thought process that does the opposite of what it sets out to do.
i hate yalli can't wait to make my own army by breeding 1000 women and then send all my offspring to kill every antinatalist one by one.
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
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[made these if you want one!](https://www.tradstickydesign.com/product-page/no-baby-on-board-bumper-sticker)
[made these if you want one!](https://www.tradstickydesign.com/product-page/no-baby-on-board-bumper-sticker)
Save as much as possible and live in a retirement home with a lot of old folks like me, I think it will be a fun few years. Also, I have a serious disability (paraplegic) and I smoke a lot, I don't think I will live that long, max 60-70.
The thing is, since I don't need to worry about leaving an inheritance, I can sell my house and use the money to pay for the retirement home and my last years.
I think this is a problem most people will face in the coming decades because birth rates are very low anyways so a lot of elderly people will be forced to live in retirement homes since their only child will have two jobs and can't even care for himself. Normalizing retirement homes is the only way to solve the aging population problem since they are very efficient (e.g. 1 person can take care of 10 old people instead of everyone spending their time on it). So don't worry, we won't be exceptions.
Imma teach you losers how to liveThis is life - you’re dealt a hand of cards not of your choosing- maybe it’s a good hand but most likely it’s a shitty hand:
Options one : cry all day about your shitty hand and blame everything and everyone for all the evil in the world
Option two : accept the cards you were dealt & instead of whining, use that time to play the fuck out of your hand, take risk, bluff, put everything on the line and for better or worst you’ll feel alive for once -
Step 3: have/adopt kids
Step:4 profit
I feel like it would be hard to go against your instincts at least for me. but I definitely believe I was forced into this life.
Me when child
Me when child
The kitty looks like my tuxie boy!
Thanks for introducing me to veganismIf it wasn’t for the people on here who kept discussing and debating veganism, even when people refused to listen or resorted to the same illogical excuses natalists pull, I would have never been introduced to the philosophy and realized I was directly complicit in the suffering of thousands of sentient beings. I have now been vegan since September last year and I could not have done it without you all exposing my ignorance and irrationality. Thank you so much.
To everyone here who remains unconvinced of the vegan philosophy, please watch the documentary Dominion. It’s available for free on YouTube and shows the reality we forcefully breed sentient beings into.
My mom told it was my decision to be bornAs ridiculous as it sounds, but it was my fault I was born.
I had an argument with both of my parents that started with my dad saying that I am egoistic for not wanting kids and not being happy with the life that they gave me, and ended with my mom (completely crazy about spirituality and believing in past life) that I as a little angel-baby decided myself which family I am going to be born into and that my spirit have chosen this family. Basically, I asked to be born at the spiritual realm and now how to deal with this life. I am the only one who is to blame here, my parents didn’t do anything wrong. Now I am just crying in my room and want to kill myself
Kids no matter whatI don't want kids mainly cause I'm barely able to take care of myself but largely because I'm bipolar and have some other illnesses. Anyway, telling my boss that one day and she says she would have had kids no matter what. Said she'd risk any abnormality of whatever just for the sake of her getting what she wants. How the hell do you even respond to that?
How would you feel about a law that completely banned new babies from being born?Like forcing ~~abortions~~ Vasectomies/sterilization on everyone
Edit: changed abortions to vasectomies.
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I think this guy make take the ‘worst breeder’ cake, but I think that almost every time I open r/AITA
Why I'm An AntinatalistA video about why I'm an antinatalist. My YouTube channel is all about antinatalism, check it out here: [https://www.youtube.com/lawrenceanton](https://www.youtube.com/lawrenceanton)
“Someone nutted inside of me when I was 14 and now it’s my entire personality.”
How is this a flex? You had a kid in high school meaning you probably never went to college or had any sort of meaningful job. You’re stuck with three kids and can’t ever live out your dreams. I don’t get it smh
FarewellWhen I came to this sub, I was interested in the philosophical reasons for not having children. I found some things there that I quite agreed with, and it’s influenced my thinking.
For the last few months, however, my feed has been bombarded with hate and vitriol towards anyone with children or considering being parents, especially women. This isn’t what I’m about. Hate like I see here is entirely against what I stand for. It’s the same nonsense I see from incels and the like- hateful rhetoric justified with self-imposed victimhood. “My life stinks, so I hate the kind of people that brought me into this world.”
To be clear, I’m not against antinatalism. What I’m saying is that this sub has become a trash pit, a hate group that no longer resembles what I believe the first antinatalists might have endorsed. The original ideas have influenced my thinking, but I won’t use that to justify hating normal people, including my loved ones. I’m trying to have greater compassion and understanding for those that make different decisions than I do, not less. Plus, spite never changes hearts and minds. Kind, reasoned, understanding dialogue does. That’s not to say that antinatalism doesn’t face the same sort of criticism- it does, but the answer isn’t to return fire in kind. I hope this sub figures itself out and decides to take the high road. Maybe then it will be more attractive to the mainstream. Until then, adieu.
my mom tells me she should have aborted meMy mom gave birth to me at 18 and claims that i ruined her life, like did i choose to be born? It was her choice to risk that. It was her choice to drop out of college and have a shitty job. She abused me physically, emotionally , and sexually, and i believe it is resentment towards her own poor choices. Its not fair to people like me. I was her first born . I also happen to be diagnosed with autism (ASD), OCD, and other stuff, and she always tells me that she should have aborted me, and that I "make her wonder" and that she wishes she had a "normal child" and that she never wanted me. Its just really frustrating because Its not even my fucking fault. She is the one giving birth knowing damn well that our family bloodline has tons of problems including schizophrenia. Do you guys think that she is taking her own regret on me ?
Shit’s gonna get wild
Whores are gonna Whore.
What's it all about?Nothing big, just curious about the anti-natalism viewpoint, so I thought I'd ask people who partake in it.
Indeed, it's highly unrealistic. Reasons: A: politics, anyone without a JD running for a political office like DA for a locality would be laughed out of the press (the only exception to this would be a higher level degree of somewhat equal education equivalency like PHD, MD, MPH etc). B: Money, it takes money to even run a campaign & even a filing fee to run for a political office, if you're I your're totally grassroots & on your own unless you can manage to get support from the duopoly (R/D). C: even if you manage to make it through those two hurdles previously mentioned the opposite policy side press will eviscerate you for 'not upholding the rule of law' (because you would basically be adjudicating from the bench locally speaking & they've given the SCOTUS judges hell for years about that federally, but the exceptions with them on that level is that they are not elected directly & democratically, they are appointed & approved by the US senate representatives of the electorate indirectly.
Pro-Natalists trolls like Oilerator are reactionaries who promote suffering and stagnation of humanity's progress (edit)
Video I saw on tiktok
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This isn’t interesting, just heartbreaking.
This photo posted by some rad people in SLC has been making the rounds today! Posted in r/pics & r/conspiracy the comments aren’t too terrible.
Can we be "wrong" about our own happiness?One argument I've heard repeatedly (including in Better Never to Have Been) appeals to Optimism Bias and Terror Management Theory to explain why our life is worse than we think—that is, we can't as humans accurately evaluate our own happiness because we delude ourselves. But I'm a little confused by this argument. Specifically, I'm not sure how we can be wrong about our own mental states. If we don't recognize a state as "unhappy" then are we actually unhappy? Happiness/satisfaction are definitionally subjective states, right? Isn't *thinking* you're happy/satisfied the same as *being* happy/satisfied, regardless of whether a 3rd party thinks you *shouldn't be* (whatever "shouldn't be" can possibly mean here)?
I don't understand how one can appeal to the generally negative experience of life by appealing to what appears to be an empirically demonstrated effect whereby we are programmed to actually have a generally positive evaluation of our lives.
To be clear, there are going to be people who do consider there life to have net suffering, but that's a separate issue. The argument is that at least the vast majority of people suffer more than they think. This seems incoherent. Am I missing something?
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Can anyone be mentally ret@rded & antinatalism at the same timeAsking for a friend
The problem is not god, the trap, this realm.I'm piss of about parents. The problem is simple, easy. We are doomed because sex. This intense need is the motor of this hellish machine-existence.
There are great moments but nobody enjoy to be responsable of someone else during 20-30 years (more if your child have babies later)
That's expensive, stressful and whatever you try to be a really good mum/dad, life will not spare your descendance. 1 child on 5 suffered touching from relatives, the air and food are now toxic, genetic deseases etc etc.
One-child policyI think implementing a one-child policy (like China did) worldwide would be great. Banning everyone from having kids might be a little hard to accomplish, but I believe decreasing the world population would make life happier for the existing humans. Too much of something is never a good thing, and right now it feels like we live in a world of breeding chaos.
**Edit: I don’t really hold this as a strong opinion, It was more about seeing if others agree with the idea, and if not, why. I understand how this would become an anti-women ordeal.**
Carl Sagan and his children. Aren’t they cute?
while I see a miracle of modern science y'all probably just see a waste of time and money, you poor nihilistic fools. Reddit keeps shoving y'alls posts down my throat so I thought I'd counter post this decrepit little part of the internet.
Do ya’ll hate the poorMost of the posts on here are just shaming poor people for wanting kids. I don’t see how it’s wrong to want a family especially if that’s how you’re raised to think. Wealthy people generally have access to more education and resources which give them the privilege of planning their family. Less educated people with less access to medical care are more likely to have kids at a young age. I agree that we should not raise kids in bad circumstances, but I don’t think shaming poor people is going to fix anything.
I saw this video on tiktok and god I love Chelsea Handler
Sub is stupidBan me from this stupid fucking sub so I don’t have to see this fucking trash on my Home Screen anymore. You people are disgusting and feed off of negativity. Seek help and get off Reddit
Just log off and read a book or end it quit whining you fucking loser
Im really glas you nutcases never spread your genes
You really are doing a service, thank you
Why is this a controversial thing to say?
Why is this a controversial thing to say?
“Telling my husband I am pregnant with our 5th kid in 6 years”
“Telling my husband I am pregnant with our 5th kid in 6 years”
Why is this a controversial thing to say?
Ah I love this subJust wanted to leave this here for y’all, I remembered this after seeing a post from here show up in my feed again, someone said it once when arguing with another dumbass from this emo sub
“The people from r/antinatalism answer the question of human suffering by forgetting why we asked it in the first place.
They’re logic to the solve the problem of human suffering is the way that a bullet solves a headache”
Get out of this echo chamber idiots, your mom being strict and you being anxious and insecure doesn’t mean you were wronged by being brought into this world
I would say you are one step above the antivaxxers but that has become more mainstream lately
Go outside and try living instead of staying in your rooms and bitching about it
So now you're hurling unfounded insults at me now? Incel? Far from it hun, but whatever tickles your pickle.
And how much education do you need to figure out of your life is shit then don't add 44 more to it?? If you're that thick to begin with, I don't think education can help you very much.
"Her offing herself would leave 44 children abandoned"
(Why do I always have to deal with the dumbest of them) Did she wake up to 44 babies one fine morning? Did she have all 44 of them at once? She had fucking years to end this shit.
Hm, no. If you don't want to get kids in the first place, you really shouldn't. Revenge is sweet and all but you'll end up regretting having them later in life.
Yeah! kill the little shithead! The fucking little cunt would never amount to anything anyway.
Yes, I do think a lot of people offing themselves would help a lot of things.
But anyway, I said what I said - I can see bunch of you don't agree, so be it.
To me, if your life is miserable af, you adding more to it makes you more insect-brained than anything else.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. While I can see your correlation between “mature for your age” and grooming, it can in fact be a compliment. I have three daughters. My middle child (all are under 15) is quite “mature for her age”. Context matters. She’s still a kid and still does kid stuff. None of my children raise each other. My wife and I do that. Her behavior, her approach to things happens to lean rather adult like instead of kid like. When we started having kids we didn’t do much baby talk. There’s always going to be baby talk when your around babies, we just didn’t over do it. Perhaps that’s a reason why. I like to think it’s her intelligence and personality. In this instance I guess it’s based off the differences I observe between her sisters, one older, and one younger. They are all free to be kids, which means they are encouraged to express themselves openly and enjoy the fleeting childhood years. They do go by so fast. They have chores, I believe it teaches them life skills, as far as how to keep a house, prioritize, and discipline. It’s still up to my wife and I to do all of things as the chores in themselves are our responsibility and not there’s. This way they learn how to do basic things like clean a bathroom, take out the trash, cook, and sew. The burden to get this stuff done is not on them, but they know how to do it. If there is any grooming going on, it’s grooming my children to be successful members of society that are secure in themselves and are able to set and focus on the goals THEY set for themselves. Sorry for the rant, that irked me. Not everybody out here is trying to manipulate kids. They aren’t slaves, or objects, they are people in their own right and I have been blessed with guiding these young people into adulthood. And I’m so sorry that this is so often not the case that I felt compelled to say so in the first place. I will try to change my phrasing, I had no idea just how creepy it could be.
That Twitch DJ just killed himself.The guy shot himself in the head and he had 3 kids….I don’t think suicide is selfish until you have decided to reproduce. Once you have kids then suicide is the most selfish thing in the world. Seriously, what are these celebrities thinking??? They have multiple kids and THEN chose to off themselves. I truly don’t get it.
That is very easily objectionable at Premise 1. "Life is net suffering" is not an objective Truth, therefore it cannot be a basis for objective immorality. You didn't even provide any evidence for Premise 1 being true, or any line of reasoning at all.
you don't even need to argue emergentist philosophy to prove this wrong. I can literally claim that my life is being lived with net pleasure and not net suffering. My parents are now living their life in net pleasure and will die with this same net pleasure in mind simply because they know that I am living my own life in net pleasure. By that analogy alone your premise 1 can be proven false. These are true statements about myself and my parents, in order for your objective immorality on the basis of "net suffering" to be true, *everyone* must experience this net suffering, including me. Either that, or provide an explanation that my parents and I are completely irrational in having experienced this net pleasure (similar to claiming that 2 + 2 = 5). Which is impossible, because the fact that I am typing out coherent arguments right now is proof of my rationality.
r/childfree
Why post this here?
Art The Clown - Evolution
A Possible Justification and Defense of Health-Based "Eugenics" Controversial I acknowledge, but health-centric eugenics is, to me at least, a logical, defensible position from a utilitarian/anti-suffering standpoint if one strips away and disposes the unscientific, outmoded views on 'race', which does not actually exist in a strictly biological-genetic sense in the species of human beings/homo sapiens (race 'eliminativism' or reductionism is generally accepted view amongst geneticists, evolutionary biologists, and anthropologists). I would technically consider my view as "anti-dysgenic" and see it as a moderate, middle ground "compromise". If total/unconditional, philosophical anti-natalism is rejected and humans continue to insist on this reproduction "mission", the procreative imposition, it would be infinitely preferable that the babies and children born are as healthy as possible and have to suffer as few disadvantages, hardships, defectiveness, and unfair starts as we could proactively manage/influence. This would fall, from my understanding, into the sub-category known as de-natalism. People who knowingly go forth to procreate and passing on terrible, debilitating, genetically inheritable/congenital diseases and disabilities to the new child, who couldn't even consent to the imposition of life even in a considerably normal, healthy body, are not commendable, brave, or acting with any kind 'bestowing of love' or risk-assessing of the best-interest and well-being of the future child.
Contemplate and ruminate upon a thought experiment where doctors existing in some theoretical transhumanist, Gattaca-style future, wherein "designer babies" became a reality, were to go into the womb and perform surgeries and conduct CRISPER Cas-9 type gene editing of a negative, detrimental nature, that is these engineers actually put in/inserted mutations and specific deleterious, harmful genes that caused deformities in utero or into fertilized eggs/embryos to later implant in the uterus. What if the parents voluntarily approved and were allowed to ingest the notorious thalidomide with full, absolute knowledge of the fateful outcome or have the extra copy of chromosome 21 placed to deliberately/intentionally cause Down Syndrome. This practice would be widely excoriated as a bioethical-moral abomination and utterly unjustifiable disaster, an egregious, dystopian, and selfishly cruel medical enterprise. The parents could respond to all reasoned criticism or proposals for regulation or illegalizing of this with "but it's my 'freedom' " or "it's my 'rightful, personal choice' ", but I do not think this would be a persuasive counterargument. However, is this very far from what happens when a prospective parent consciously decides to have biological children with cystic fibrosis, cerebral palsy, chronic pain syndromes, multiple sclerosis, Parkinsons disease, severe autism, spina bifida, scoliosis, or schizophrenia (with full possession of the facts and extensive family histories concerning their genetic makeup or with our advanced ultrasonic methods of prenatal testing)? Would we encourage or condone going up to newborn infants or toddlers and injecting some hypothetical paralysis drug/serum, then excuse it by proclaiming with obtuse, flippant certainty, "yes, they'll be disabled for life, but they'll get over it, eventually learn to cope through the process of adaptation with this adversity, burdensome inequity, and all the major, handicapping challenges blah, blah, blah."
I wouldn't wish these medical-physical health problems/dysfunctions I have on my own worst enemy, yet I'm supposed to and probably socially rewarded or pressured to find some woman to impregnate, have a kid and willfully transmit the gene-rooted predisposition, vulnerability/susceptibility or outright guarantee to them? My OCD and generalized anxiety were enough of a catalyst for me to begin introspectively analyzing and philosophically deducing, in my mid-teens, the conclusion to swear off ever reproducing. I found it un-conscionable, conceited, and the furthest possible thing from empathy, compassion, beneficence, or love. Many will commonly concur with the same sentiment of "I wouldn't wish \[insert any debilitating, disabling physiological disease/disorder or crippling psychological/mental illness compiled in the preponderance of the medical literature"\] on my worst enemy" phrase, but then you will give it without any cautionary hindrance or pre-considerations to your own child?
EuthanasiaHey guys. I have to submit a university paper soon. Can you guys fill out this form? All emails and personal information will be kept private; this form is only for scientific purposes. Thanks
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[https://forms.gle/GorkFPnCrq9ZrRxg9](https://forms.gle/GorkFPnCrq9ZrRxg9)
Just A Story.When I was a child and learned I didn't "have" to reproduce as I had been taught, I was so relieved. I had always been disgusted by procreation, not only on a physical level but on a moral level. Even as a young child, I understood there were so many children without parents who needed responsible and nurturing adults to love them, and that if I ever wanted to become a parent someday, which I highly doubted, I would adopt a child instead of procreating myself. I remember sharing this with my dad who insisted that someday I would feel different and I would want "children of my own". This upset me. He wasn't listening. I saw no need to have a child come out of my body when so many already needed care and love and I didn't think I would ever want to be a parent anyway. And I didn't understand what the difference was, whether it was my own biological child or an adopted child and what the difference in value was. I grew into an adult and I maintained my stance on not wanting to reproduce. It never changed. No relationship or societal pressure influenced me to do something I didn't want to do. Now consider this - At 41 I was diagnosed with adneocarcinoma in my cervix and had to have my uterus, including cervix removed. Considering nowadays, females can reproduce into their 40s, this could have been an absolutely devastating blow to me had I wanted to have a child. Instead I feel nothing but joy to have the adneocarcinoma removed, to never have a pointless menstrual cycle again, and never ever can I carry a child in my body which was something that always disgusted me and that society made me feel I owed to them. Fuck you society for making females feel as though they have to carry children inside of them. I feel pure joy when I realize that it would be physically impossible for that to happen to me now. I'm grateful that I never wanted children and that instead of this being a tragedy for me, it's a victory. now that my body is free from ever having to reproduce, I would like to help women who can but who don't want to somehow be liberated, whether it's through education, access to contraception, etc. I haven't thought too much about it yet, because my uterus was only recently removed but there's got to be a way I can help women who don't want to reproduce understand they don't have to. Thanks for listening to my story.
y'all just tryna cope with the fact that you have no bitches🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿
Holy shit, why this just jump scared me
I hate “miracle” stories where doctors advised people to not have kids and they didLike they say not to for a reason, your kid could die and so can you? I don’t understand these people. I was born under trash circumstances like low class, dead beat dad and mom working all day. And I have many chronic illnesses due to genetics. This is child abuse. Why have a child if your going to work all day, I wish I was never born. There is no such thing as a miracle child. If a doctor advises you not to have a baby you really shouldn’t. Like how desperate are you to ruin a innocent life?
People who say they are good with kids and care for them and want to protect their innocence SHOULDNT have kids. They know damn well how bad life is. So, if you care about human life and care about protecting innocent kids then don’t have kids. It’s that simple….
this sub isn’t what I signed up for but I hope y’all find what you’re looking for hereI really enjoy the actual AN content and discussions that go on. The actual idea of the philosophy and how people experience the world and being alive while also being AN is really interesting but half of y’all just rip into parents and make fun of people who have genetic disorders and it’s just rude and uncomfortable and isn’t sparking discussion.
Shitting on peoples lives and how they’re living now isn’t what this sub should be about. It should be about the ethics and morality of having children but it’s just roasting babies who have genetic defects and dragging parents who are having children as opposed to us diving deeper into conversations about WHY they’re having children.
Just wanted to make it clear that making fun of people and being mean isn’t helping the cause and it’s likely why people think this subreddit is creepy and weird.
I enjoyed a lot of the posts but after seeing someone say that a baby with an enlarged tongue “jump scared” them it made me realize how cringe this space is 💀
People thinking their pregnancy test deserves to be on everyone’s front page…
[ Removed by Reddit ]
I hope I have 4 children just to spite you people. Labeling people breeders is cringe as fuck. You deserved the bullying you got in elementry school.
yall aint right, prove me wrongI never been here but reddit sent a notification about this, and this is a real sad sub. Like the only time a point made sence was because they couldnt afford it, but besides that its just a bunch of people who fuck around. Like there wasnt a single time i thought "huh this has a point," it has been nothing but sadness. I want some of yall to send me your reasons cause i just dont get it.
Carl Sagan with his children. They’re so cute!
does anti natalism support baby murderdoes antinatalism think we should murder babies to undo harm?