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No suffering me for me, but lots of suffering for thee! š¹šŖ #FuckHumanSupremacists
I believe me being an antinatalist is simply an act of sacrifice.It is interesting to me to read what people write about not wanting to have children and it seems to me that most people don't want children for their own comfort and peace in life which is very much reasonable and understandable. But for me, it is way deeper than that. I, personally would like the idea of having a child of my own blood but the thought of them growing up in such messed up world and having to carry the burden of life and existence, stops me from having kids or even considering it. I am sacrificing my own liking to have children for the sake of my children who will never be born and I think that is the whole idea and it is beautiful.
I donāt understand your guys point of view.Let me ask what would happen if we all believed the same as you guys there would be no people left. What if your parents had this point of view you guys wouldnāt exist. So i donāt understand you position in society do you guys strive for the end of the human race or do you hold your beliefs and hope that there are others who donāt. I just wanna say there is no disrespect in this post itās merely conversation. You guys can believe what you want i just wanna know the in and outs.
Hello there, could you please give us an English translation or a description of this?
There's a good chance that he may be secretly antinatalist since he works with orphans. But his statement here does not show antinatalism.
Translation:
"Me and my wife have decided not to have kids so that people can't say we are hoarding money for our children" - Kishore Kumar Das, Founding Chairman, Bidyananda Foundation
So if someone only wants to eat humans, they should be entitled to, because they might end up starving themselves if they don't?
Jeffrey Dahmer approves š
My problem with antinatalismThere is nothing wrong if you personally don't want to have kids because you think it's bad but a problem arises when you try to impose a moral compass on everyone while morality is subjective, since right and wrong is based on feelings and varies from person to person.
I personally find beauty in existence despite suffering, the strangeness and beauty of existence makes it all worth it, and i think it would be a shame to not exist at least once and experience the world and pain and pleasure, in fact i think it would be bad if there was no one to experience it all, so imo having existed is good no matter how good or bad your life was.I see nothing wrong with giving birth to a child even if he will inevitably suffer.
Basically i value the act of existing and having the capacity to reflect on life more than how pleasurable life itself is.
Of course this is just my personal philosophy and it is subjective as well but it offers you a different perspective on life and allows you to be more nuanced than staunchly believing reproduction is bad.I personally like the idea of assisted suicide being readily available for those who wish to opt out but don't think people should stop reproducing.I don't understand why antinatalists so firmly believe in their philosophy like a religion, it feels like to me this is more emotional than logical.
edit: it seems people are focusing on my personal philosophy, i do not wish to impose it on anyone as i have mentioned it is subjective, i just mentioned it to show you how subjective morality is.
You are so terrible at talking to depressed people itās dangerous. If youāre determined to keep doing this, at least go take a class on counseling or something. Youāre seriously really bad at this. āItās all in your headā is like the number one thing youāre not supposed to say. This shit is just laughable... Actually who am I kidding this is probably a bot, now that I think about it
So do you think that voluntary childlessness should be added to the diagnostic criteria for depression? That there is no healthy reason someone wouldnāt want to have children? That everyone on earth who doesnāt have kids is automatically depressed and instantly becomes cured as soon as they have a baby?
Because thatās legitimately a weird opinion. Kind of rapey/anti-choice/antifeminist.
But of course you think Iām certifiably insane and you wonāt listen anything I say to you because you just think youāre sooooo much better and more enlightened than those poor sad depressed little antinatalists. Whatever. Iām sure your kids will have happy lives after Iām gone. Or they wonāt. I donāt care either way. Not my problem.
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This just in from shit delusional breeders say that they somehow think are valid arguments
This just in from shit delusional breeders say that they somehow think are valid arguments
Iām sorry but at the end of the day it is ultimately meaningless. Especially for those who have endured a lot of pain and suffering at young ages. I understand why some people may want kids because they have the resources and patience and love to give them, but as someone whose life has been full of misery and watching people I love die, I have no intention of bringing anyone else here to just suffer with me
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Teach them young
Teach them young
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Doesn't have to be an accurate translation, just let us know what it says so we can make sure it doesn't break the rules.
Is antinatalism an extreme form of "conditional natalism"? At what point does conditional natalism become unconditional antinatalism?By that I mean if hypothetically the antinatalist arguments and ethical concerns such as; guaranteed harm, impossibility of consent, and gambling, etc. weren't an issue, would it still be ethically wrong to procreate? Assuming you aren't childfree, would any of you want to reproduce in such a reality?
Is there a difference between an unconditional antinatalist and a conditional natalist if the conditions are impossible? Should a distinction be made, and does it matter if neither think it will ever be ethical to procreate?
Hope this makes sense.
Hello there, could you please give us an English translation or a description of this?
Hello there, could you please give us an English translation or a description of this?
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Oh well, if thatās the caseā¦
Oh well, if thatās the caseā¦
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I am the Insane BreederSo two years ago in some insane combination of hope and delusion I decided to have a baby. Even then I knew it was selfish but I told myself I would raise them to be true to themself and follow their passions. Most of the environmentalists I know have kids themselves and I just justified it some way or another. Meanwhile the war in Ukraine started, emissions soared back up to a new high, cost of living crises broke out around the world, and everything just generally went even more to shit. As soon as he was born I realized what an evil, cruel thing I had done to bring him into this evil, corrupted world. I just canāt believe what I have done. I discovered anti-natalism and VHEMT and Im so sad that I didnt find them before or even think to research more into the philosophy of natalism. I just feel so hopeless and it is even hard to take care of my son sometimes because I feel I have already doomed him. People tell me this is postpartum depression, but I know it is not. It is a very scary world we live in and I dont even know how to prepare him for what is to come.
Can we be āgood vegans?āA vegan is a person who abstains from consuming animal products. A vegan makes this choice for a variety of reasons, ethical, financial, environmental etc. Some vegans think animal products are gross, some donāt. Iām sure most vegans think the world would be a better place if more people were vegans. Many would even consider consuming animal products if it were a much less common practice and there were more ethical ways to do it.
Antinatalists are the same, but replace āconsuming animal productsā with āhaving childrenā
However - if we want to encourage more people to be vegans, itās not an effective strategy to go around finding the most disgusting examples of people eating meat and gratuitously shaming them. Or repeatedly yelling at meat eaters that what they are doing is disgusting, or worst of all finding examples of fat people and using fat shaming to justify veganism. (Sure plenty of vegans do these things, but itās annoying, self righteous, and ineffective)
A good vegan catches more flies with honey than with vinegar. Ok maybe not honey in the case of a vegan, maybe agave syrup. A good vegan normalizes being vegan, cooks and shares yummy vegan food and recipes, advocates for more vegan options at restaurants and stores, brainstorms low-cost vegan options, supports vegetable farmers and local food systems. In other words, they proudly enjoy their lifestyle and make it seem appealing and accessible to others
Why canāt we be more like that too? Instead of finding the most despicable examples of shitty parents and putting them on blast to make ourselves feel better? Or - the most disgusting behavior I repeatedly see on this sub: shaming people with disabilities and poor people (parents and children) to justify antinatalism.
Canāt we just share our happy child-free or child-few lives and try to normalize and celebrate all the wonderful reasons to and impacts of having fewer or no children? We can make it normal, make it fun, keep it nice, and get more people to join us that way rather than being nasty judgmental jerks.
Pass the agave syrup please!
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Eh.. what. I know he tries to be nice but wtf is that
Eh.. what. I know he tries to be nice but wtf is that
Just showing my appreciation for this subIf it wasn't for r/antinatalism, I would've thought I was condemned to stay alone and alienated forever because of my core values, and that people like me couldn't be found anywhere. And I won't lie, I do feel like that sometimes, because 1) it's nearly impossible for me to find an antinatalist irl, and 2) whenever I explain my beliefs to someone, the reactions I receive range from dirty looks and confused expressions to insults and people telling me I am a depressed extremist that makes no sense because "reproduction is the ultimate goal in life". But the fact that safe spaces like this exist helps me realize that I am not alone, that people with the same empathy as me are real, that with some luck I can find a friend who thinks the same as me. It's a comforting feeling. :)
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Yes , babies suck
Yes , babies suck
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breeders make me sick
breeders make me sick
and there are several studies that indicate that at least during heterosexual penis-in-vagina sex, intact men are much more pleasing in general. That there is more contact with the clitoris, and less internal scraping motion than with circumcised men. I'll also add, that while it is not common, every year at the hospital we get infants, a week or so old, with infections to their surgical site. Because they are so young and their immune system so immature, they have to be admitted for 6 weeks of IV antibiotics. And their parents paid to have this done to them. It's just insane, and should be criminalized.
I apologize for my over the top reply to your over the top reply.
I wish your children all the best in life.
As for me, I got exactly what anyone would expect for feeding a troll.
/r/LeopardsAteMyFace
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Fuckinā babiesā¦ typical in my experience
Fuckinā babiesā¦ typical in my experience
cum consent
I disagree.
If you're going to be childless and you're going to be with somebody who's childless as well, if they are for two completely different reasons, one of selflessness versus one of selfishness, then that is not a good combination.
some tips on how to get him to pay me back?My 26yo son tricked me into helping him setting up his computer. I bought all peripherals needed for the setup, promising he'll pay me back. Now he won't pay me back and says I'm harrassing him for money! Can anyone give me some tips on how to get him to pay me back?
Hormonal bc does the exact same thing to women. Some go on the pill and it makes them infertile. It can trigger early menopauseā¦
Anti work is a laughingstock though.
I will never have kids. I don't want them. I love kids to death but I am NOT a responsible person and have health reasons why I can't have them.
I know there may be a day when I regret the decision but I asked myself when I was younger before I knew about my health issue. Would it be better to regret not having children or would it be better if I had a child and regret it later? If I regretted having a kid I probably wouldn't be the best parent.
Regretting not having something is much easier and safer.
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Lol get bent.
Arguing against a philosophy I find abhorrent
And how do people with children deal with old age? You really think the children are around them. They have their own life they could move away they could die early. I have a friend in an old age home and itās filled with people who family donāt even visit. If you have children to be not lonely in your old age, then youāre the selfish one and youāre expecting a lot on your children.
Oh Dear Parents, Fuck you."You will never be able to understand the pain I went thru, the countless nights of tears and thoughts of death, the endless mental abuse your actions have resulted in, the so many feelings of wanting to just sleep forever, this could have been avoided IF you decided to abort me."
This is what I told my female birthgiver, her response?
"You are talking nonsense"
And at that second, i realized the problem wasn't birthing or the act of being born, no, the problem is the world it's self, and the person that brings you into it, those seconds, i couldn't cry anymore , i forgot how to cry, i became a stoic, heartless and hate filled monster, and I've not regretted a second.
Why cry, when it never helped.
Why want to end it, when i know i am incapable.
Why care.
Why?
When they cried, i was to blame.
When they wanted to leave and "start anew" , i was to blame.
When i didn't care, i was called a demon.
Why?
And then it hit me...
Because if birth is the mistake, then they committed it, if they committed it, then they must pay, for everything, full price.
And dear breeders in question, i will not give up until I see you either 6 feet under or on the street, i will not smile or laugh until I can throw cold water on you in the middle of a winter night just so I can see you feel the same cold i felt everytime I was yelled, hit and abused.
And for that, oh, Satan, you will pay dearly.
Observation: mgtow and antinatalismi was around at the beginning of the mgtow "movement." i see you guys going the same way they did. your pain, trauma, frustration, whatever will make you repetitive and some of you will become more radical. what does a radical antinatalist look like? no fucking clue. some of you will off yourself because you will refuse to accept reality for what it is. antinatalism is the last taboo because procreation is the last religion.
i understand the antinatalist view, but i understand that it is not my duty to convince others of antinatlism. it makes you look like a lunatic zealot, walking the streets proselytizing. antinatlism is something you you discuss with like minded people, not the average person.
one more thing. the consent argument is "airtight," super reasonable. but you don't do everything that is reasonable. you procrastinate. you eat shitty food. procreation is the same thing. it is fucking hardwired. it can be argued that is the only thing we are here for. humans are a lucky, unlucky, miserable, wonderful misstep in evolution.
I can relate, having endured a heavy lsd trip when I was 19. A true trip essentially tricks your nervous into believing you are dying. The unconcious becomes conscious and to me the clarity in perception was the most frightening thing. Nothing about it was abstract. While I dont remember the breadth of my experience the main conviction I was left with was that I would not be bringing any beings into this world. The one thing I wanted to say to my parents afterwards but have been unable to was "Why would you bring me here?".
First of all, his style is outstanding, very clear but powerful ā even almost two centuries later. German happens to be my native language, so I am fortunate to be able to read him in the original. According to the German literary scholar and philosopher [Ulrich Horstmann](https://www.reddit.com/r/Efilism/comments/wecwik/ulrich_horstmanns_das_untier_1983_a_work_of/), Schopenhauer was one of the very few philosophers that were also great writers, and I think that's one of the reasons I love quoting him.
Schopenhauer makes excellent observations about the condicio humana, which he describes in a brutally honest, but also very accurate way.
Sure, he must have been an odd character, but an intriguing one. Not "depressed", as one would expect from a pessimist like him, but full of confidence in his ideas, and passion for writing ā one that genuinely *enjoys* writing about the nature of the world and all the suffering it bears.
And, of course, he was probably *the* most important inspiration to my boy Philipp MainlƤnder, and a large number of other fascinating philosophers, including the aforementioned Ulrich Horstmann, [Kurnig](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/wd268d/the_holy_grail_of_modern_antinatalism_unearthed/), Eduard von Hartmann, and others. If you're curious, I explained what I like most about MainlƤnder's philosophy [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Mainlander/comments/yjpxdp/what_do_you_like_most_about_mainl%C3%A4nders_philosophy/).
Why don't antinatalist allow a new life to enjoy the pleasures in life?Why only focus on pain, every new life will also have pleasures in life right.
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A Day In The Life Of a Childless Woman | The Daily Show
A Day In The Life Of a Childless Woman | The Daily Show
If you were presented with a void to walk into that would effectively immediately and painlessly erase your existence, and it was your only chance to do so, would you take the opportunity?My former coworker and I fantasized about this very thing and our coworkers became concerned that we were suicidal but we just merely said no, we donāt want to kill our selfās. We just would šÆ take the opportunity to not exist anymore.
Mind you we are both in our mid 40s and our coworkers were primarily Gen Zāers.
Edit: In this completely imaginary scenario, you would not be dying. Your existence would be completely erased meaning you would have never existed. No burdens or debts or grief left behind because there would be no memory or evidence that you were ever here.
(If this post goes against the guidelines of this sub please feel free to remove it but I thought itād be an appropriate outlet for this discussion as we all arenāt too fond of the perpetual suffering of this unfortunate malady called life) āļø
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Wtf tinder, this is the second time in two days someone's told me I needed kids.
Wtf tinder, this is the second time in two days someone's told me I needed kids.
I understand those kind of pain man but throughout our history we have improved in reducing the pain, I'm just wondering if we can keep improving on it and pass the good experience to kids.
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They are toddlers, how else do You expect them to eat? š
They are toddlers, how else do You expect them to eat? š
Making the earth into a transhumanist utopia paradise doesn't somehow mean natalism is immediately okayDeath would still exist even in the most beautiful of paradise. Just because we would be virtually immortal doesn't mean that we're also indestructible. Accidents will still happen, people will still die.
Giving birth to a child essentially means that you're subjecting them to the possibility that a freak accident could happen and end their life.
Just because you enjoy life doesn't give you the right to burden an innocent being with that. When you die, all your memories disappear, all your achievements are gone, you won't even know that you were ever alive to begin with. You shouldn't decide for others that they will somehow be okay with that fact.
Furthermore, current science hints to the fact that empty individualism is correct. That human consciousness is ultimately emphereal and transient. Our very being is just chemicals in our brains. Neurons that are firing on and off in succession. And once you stop that flow of neural activity, that specific instance of a person forever ceases to exist. Why impose such a condition on a child?
And before someone says "Oh, we might be able to reverse entropy or we might be able to use quantum technology to bring back someone's exact same consciousness." The problem with that notion is that there's literally no guarantee that will ever be accomplished. This universe doesn't belong to us. The universe doesn't exist of our own free will. The laws of physics don't care about what we what. The idea of circumventing the laws of physics presupposes that there's some sort of metaphysical backdoor that exists in the first place. We shouldn't continue having children just based on the optimism that there's a " chance" we can conquer the very nature of time and space.
As long as entropy and empty individualism exists, antinatalism will always be valid.
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Business is closed today becauseā¦. Kids.Rant. I chose not to have children for many reasons, but one of my best reasons is that I can set my own schedule and operate my business very effectively. I have an order to pick up from a local small business. I emailed them early to let them know Iāll be coming in today to pick it up. An emailed auto-response informed me that they are closed today āDue to schools being closed for Presidentsā Dayā Schools are closed ON MONDAY, so you shut down your business on FRIDAY? Sure, youāre a small business (cash only- which was the first problem) and you have the right to set your hours as you please. But I certainly wonāt be doing business with you again. Nor will I be recommending your services to anyone I know. End rant.
Business is closed today becauseā¦. Kids.Rant. I chose not to have children for many reasons, but one of my best reasons is that I can set my own schedule and operate my business very effectively. I have an order to pick up from a local small business. I emailed them early to let them know Iāll be coming in today to pick it up. An emailed auto-response informed me that they are closed today āDue to schools being closed for Presidentsā Dayā Schools are closed ON MONDAY, so you shut down your business on FRIDAY? Sure, youāre a small business (cash only- which was the first problem) and you have the right to set your hours as you please. But I certainly wonāt be doing business with you again. Nor will I be recommending your services to anyone I know. End rant.
Antinatalism is both philosophical and personal.
While the end goal of pushing the narrative of birth being unethical might eventually see extinction, i would say that the practical chance is essentially zero by voluntary extinction.
Of course that antinatalists go beyond population shrinkage, because we make an ethical case for birth being wrong in all possible cases of our known reality- namely because unborn people canāt be deprived of existence and born people are capable of suffering. These two facts wonāt change if populations were smaller or resources more abundant. It would be *slightly more justified* to have children in a better world, but itās fundamentally impossible to ethically have a child unless suffering were eliminated or you can prove that unborn people are deprived of an existence that they desire.
Are you actually concerned that humanity wil end? Iām not, even though i see all life as unnecessary in the grand scheme.
It sounds like you are more suited to versions of child bearing philosophy that are concerned about economics or environment concerns. In that case, you would be better to look in communities like /r/vegan, /r/futurology, or leftist political subs concerned with egalitarian politics and environmental issues
Right. Theyāre childfree because they donāt see the advantages of having kids YET. When they see the benefits of having kids, all that childfree shit will go right down the drain. Lol.
You have never experienced this, and never will, so you will be unable to understand. Why do the lives of others bother you so much? Your thoughts and opinions on the subject are unnecessary.
I'm fuming. Would like to start off by saying my mum is a wonderful woman and this is in no way against her. Today I heard my mum complaining about how difficult her life is with 4 kids and no helpers I asked her why she decided to birth 4 kids consciously and willingly when she knew she can't handle it mentally and physically as a middle class family with tight money problems. She said it was Allah's (gods) WILL and it was not her choice. Then I said you had sex by your choice with the intent of having babies that will most likely amount to nothing, work 9-5 jobs, contribute to climate change and fucking up the environment, be depressed and die most likely because of not being able to support themselves and have no one beside them on their death bed. She replied said her children will definitely be special. Here I am, a former gifted kid that needs anti depressants to function and can't see her distant family because of the war in her country, and that lives on noodles and ice cubes. I'm only a kid and waiting to be a slave to the 9-5 lifestyle. Edit- I do not hate my mum and love her, just don't agree with her.
Itās funny because itās true.
Iām new hereā¦ helpIām not sure how I stumbled upon this groupā¦ but here I am. I guess I didnāt really know that a group like this existed? Can someone explain to me why itās morally wrong to have children? Wonāt the entire human race die off? Isnāt having children natural?
No judgment just totally new information to me and I would love to know more about this
Thanks!
I agree upon that but we can experience pleasure only if we have experienced pain before. We cannot understand light if there is no darkness right. So why fear pain, In fact that's what makes pleasure pleasurable.
So if we can make our lifetime unlimited then we can have kids ? We have already improved our lifetime, it might be possible to attain immortality.
Why do you think our current conditions is captive?. I can see people enjoying, well not all but I can see some. Some people who are enjoying are also the people who came from bottom.
I have seen that chart before. Absence of pleasure is not bad looks like a statement of an excuse to support the thesis.
Throughout the history there are humans who lived with the highest pleasures possible and they all tried to extend their life and also had lot of kids to experience those pleasures. It made me think that the opposite of those people are the ones who are antinatalist.
I'm not bashing anyone, I'm an young man who is early 20s trying to understand the concept so that I would not make any mistake fundamentally.
If humanity can improve on reducing pain and increasing pleasure then is it okay ?
Page from a book written by an adult psychologist...like it never occured to him before?
Would I be considered Anti-Natalist?First off, hope you guys are having a good day. I'm pretty new to this sub reddit but I'm unsure if my views would be counted as Anti-Natalist. So I wouldn't want to bring any children into this world myself as I wouldn't want them experiencing any of the hardships this world has brought upon us such as global warming or war. But at the same time I wouldn't discourage others from having kids if they wanted too (Although i would tell them to reconsider it due to the factors I mentioned). Would this make an Anti-Natalist or something else? Thanks for your help.
It's kind of rude to accuse us of hating children. What is the basis for your reasoning? Antinatilism isn't about us but preventing the suffering of others.
IMO, head on over to r/childfree, their philosophy usually seems more focused on themselves and on how children would affect their own lives. In a quick search several posts mention hating children in the title.
Antinatalists don't hate children, in fact, we love them so much we think it's wrong to expose them to the suffering of the world.
A better place to ask might be r/regretfulparents . They don't hate children either, but they post about why they regret having children
Why do people have kids that arenāt expected to live long or have a good quality of life?It makes me mad when I read stories about people giving birth to babies with terminal illnesses. āWeāre not going to give up on our baby, God has a plan.ā I just think itās incredibly cruel to not abort when you know your kid is going to immensely suffer in the short time itās going to be alive.
Looked like a bad-faith troll post. We took care of this ā thank you!
don't have kids til you're 40, i'm serious{EXPERIMENT CLOSED}
!thank you all for your participation!
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Do be like this
Do be like this
the dream
All of the above (and below)
People say non-existence "deprives" potential children of life but isn't being brought into existence in the first place the start of all deprivation in life?Being given life makes it possible to feel being deprived in the first place. So why do people insist that I am depriving potential children even after I've explained? I don't think it's that hard to understand. When we die we'll go back to being non-existent anyway so what difference would it make for the child if they skipped life? No difference, like they never existed in the first place.
And I can't get my head around why people care so much to argue. My children are my business and I don't want to make any. Granted, my children could enjoy life but they could also hate it. I think it would be wrong for me to gamble, no one chooses to be born after all.
"No one chooses to be born." Another thing people argue over... it's a little frustrating because I'm not telling anyone what to do. Just trying to help people understand my choice.
UGHHH... I just WISH i could kick ROCKS all day LONG.. imma WEAR MY BLACK HOODIE STAINED WITH SEWAT AND WAIT UNTIL IT RAINS. THEN IM GOING TO THE TRAIN TRACKS TO KICK ROCKS. UGH... UH UHHO HO WHY...?? people have kids... KICK ROCKS people are happier than me...KICK ROCKS i have constant depreson...KICK ROCKS
UGH.. WHY... (kicking rocks post)GUYS please join me in new social movements.. i have found out the cause of all my trobles and its because people have kids.. this new social movement is called KICKING ROCKS. here is how you doi it:
\-check the weather and wait until day it will rian
\-find a black hoodie (it is beter if there is more sweat in it)
\-wear yuour hoodie and walk to train tracks
\-now mope around and kick rocks fdor rest of day (UNLES YOU HAVE A JOB š¤£š)
Every human universally and categorically rejects suffering? Buddy, have you ever read a book? Even one? Humans can ONLY find value in adversity. If thereās nothing to rage against existence becomes dull. Which is why weāre arguing and you genuinely believe you have something important to say about the nature of life. Is it suffering? Nah. But itās struggle, which is sufferingās hot twin sister.
Look around, look within. If youāre not dead, it means you believe life is worth living. Try arguing that all you want. The remainder of your lifespan is naught but potential suffering. The same potential suffering you think no child should ever experience. So die. Respectfully, go and die if you truly believe life is too full of misery to continue. But here you are. Because you like eating, and jerking off, and getting into conversations with strangers. Because you like being alive. But anyone who comes after? Noooo, too risky.
Please grow up. Please understand that you cannot be against birth if youāre a living human being. If life is hard, youāve got a way out. Everyone does, all the time. We have consent to live, because we all know that cold steel drawn across our own necks would stop us from living. Life is worth it. You know it or you would be dead. Youāre a hypocrite with no grasp on your own rotting soul.
found this on r/sbubby
we should start a "No New Children Until All Existing Children Have Been Adopted" campaignBillboards, ads, etc. How does one go about bankrolling that sort of thing?
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. Itās an ugly solution, but it is the only solutionā¦ Itās time to stop being squeamish.
*****
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Morality is pretty subjective. The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Heidt covers this topic.
If youāre paying that much for rent, have you considered moving?
Concent can be manufactured. Unborn humans can't give concent.
*America was built on values that the left is fighting every single day to tear down.*
-Ben Shapiro
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*āNative American culture [being] inferior to Western cultureā¦is a contention with which I generally agree.*
-Ben Shapiro
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Itās more like a wild fire thatās burning down the forests
Where did you get that interpretation?
19 āDo not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
This would work over in r/childfree
Iām a Christian. I attend church every week. Iām an antinatalist because Jesus said to make disciples, he never said to make babies. He also said the path to heaven is difficult and the path to hell is easy. Why create new life when eternal torment is the most likely outcome for your offspring? Itās foolish to create children and assume they will follow a savior they canāt physically see or touch into heaven instead of a world they can into hell.
*We are being told that if we don't mask our children, that if we don't mask ourselves, that if we don't initiate social distancing measures again and shut down business again, that COVID is going to kill us all*
-Ben Shapiro
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You might suffer tomorrow. Why are you here today?
Edit: even better. You might cause the death of 100 people tomorrow through some freak accident. You have no idea what horrible things you might do by accident. Lose focus on the highway and make a truck destroy a bridge, or any number of other horrible things. Also, your current existence is party to unbelievable amounts of suffering. Everything that you do, everything that makes your life worth living, is paid for by the blood of others. Why is it not selfish of you to exist?
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This is just....!š¤¦š¤¦
This is just....!š¤¦š¤¦
Question about antinatalismI just wanted to know if this is serious and people think its morally wrong to have children? Because to me it seems more neutral to have kids
I think a good decent amount of antinatalists have a deep down subconscious or very to the forefront disdain for the carnal desperate needs and desires that come with being human and wouldn't dare voluntarily have someone else outside of themselves have to go through those same exact thingsI can only speak for myself but I also think a good number of other antinatalists feel the same way about having the involuntary needs and desires(both physical and emotional) that comes with being human by default. Having to eat in a very consistent manner all the time and if u don't then the only other option is feeling the sensation of starvation which definitely doesn't feel good or isn't ideal. Having the need and wanting to be acknowledged or accepted by others in a social sense, having the urge to be desired and feel affection from someone of the opposite gender and just having to deal with certain people with certain characteristics that are just a straight up PAIN IN THE ASS even when u fully consciously try to avoid any kinda problems or conflict with people. Those are just a couple examples cause there's too many to list but yea I think that's the difference between a good number of antinatalists and people who think reproducing is some kinda great reasonable thing to do for someone outside of themselves for some reason. I'm personally annoyed by it at certain times and have a disdain for it at times but I'm pretty rational and reasonable enough to not be a straight up ass about it. I think a good number of antinanatalists can identity with this.
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Thought it belonged here..
Thought it belonged here..
Lifespan
One day she may even need a tracheostomy just like mama š„°@ isnt her page, no need to follow the trail. Not condoning harassment
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What humanity has come to...
What humanity has come to...
My anti-natalist views are making me miserable.I'm not sure what the point of me making this post is. I guess maybe to see if there is anyone else out there who feels like this?
I completely agree with the anti-natalist perspective and the more I think about it, the angrier I feel at the fact that I'm alive. I didn't ask to be born. If I'd have had the choice, I would've absolutely have chosen not to be brought into this world. But I'm here now. Which means I have to live this unfulfilling, miserable life of working to survive. And don't get me wrong, I like my job, but I just feel like there should be more to life than spending my one lifetime on this earth working to be able to afford to live. And there isn't a solution, because in the capitalist society I live in, if I speak about this to anyone I'm just told "that's life". In that case, I wish I hadn't been born to experience "life". And then I think about the state of the world and all the horrible things going on like climate change and poverty and inequality and corruption and it makes me feel sick. And I feel like now I'm aware of all of this, I can never regain the happiness that came with being ignorant to it all. I just wish to never have been created so that I wouldn't have to engage or be aware of any of this. I can't even kill myself because I'm too scared of death.
Sorry - I know this has been just a stream of consciousness but I just need to know that I'm not the only person that feels like this. And if there is anyone out there who understands, how do you cope?
EDIT: Wow, I really didn't expect to have so many people commenting on this. I really do appreciate every single comment left and even just knowing that it's not abnormal to feel this way gives me a lot of comfort. I feel like it can be hard to talk about this because anti-natalism is so far away from mainstream that whenever I bring up anything of the sort it quickly gets shut down. I'm glad we have this space where we can understand each other.
A lot of people have messaged me concerned for my wellbeing. I just want to reassure those people that I'm okay. Yes, I am diagnosed with mental health issues but I'm getting help for those (and I've had them long before I found out about anti-natalism!), and I'm not a risk to myself as I don't want to bring more suffering into the world by hurting the people around me.
I've read everyone's comments and I'm definitely going to try focusing more on finding meaning and joy in the mundane. I guess I need to acknowledge that I'm here now, and make the most out of a crappy situation instead of dwelling on the negatives so much. Thank you to everyone who has commented.
Ok ANs, are you religious?This sub baffles me. I joined it because I believe in it, but each day, this group turns me off to being here. So, to help me better understand you, I'm asking you this question.
"imply something unobservable should be considered", how do you think many big discoveries have and can be made? your way of thinking is like: "if i can't see it, then it doesn't exist".
You know that you have control over your life
You donāt have to suffer
It wonāt always be peaches and sunshine pussy but itās not as dark as yiur making it out to be
Just sayin
finally a good comment
Iām still having trouble grasping the point thoughā¦
What Iām taking from the sun is that life here on earth is immoral and should just endā¦..
Please let me know if Iām wrong here
>Are you referring to suicide? Because that's already my plan.
No I mean like living in the woods. That's why is say by definition it is not slavery. because you have the option to totally go live in the forest. you are not actually forced to work... if you want to make money, you can work, but if you don't, then you absolutely are not forced to work.
lol seethe my boy,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna\_principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna_principle)
"Research indicates that at the subconscious level, the mind tends to focus on the optimistic; while at the conscious level, it tends to focus on the negative." So in reality, you actually are storing more positive, yet picking the negative out of that positive. but more positive is being stored.
the fuck? this ideology is about minimizing suffering, not shitting on kids who already exist.
so you don't want to have kids because they will die eventually?
question: do you eat meat?
antinatalist when they see someone experiencing joy (they choose to see the negative in their lives and rage when someone else is different)
he can plead insanity. he does not know the different between right and wrong.
"The argument for antinatalism isn't tied to depression, it stands on its own."
Yet most people who genuinely support antinatalism hate their lives and are depressed. I am inclined to think there is not only a correlation but also a causation here. So in theory it should stand on it's own but in practice this is most often not the case.
Got my bumper stickers and my activism cards!
Yeah I've met my Bio-dad like 3 times and my mom hung herself and left us with jack shit. We are no different from animals. Give birth, fuck them over, leave them to die in the elements. Parenting 101 people. š¤·āāļø
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Very based. Keep this coming! Perhaps no children to dine at allā¦found advertised on Facebook
Very based. Keep this coming! Perhaps no children to dine at allā¦found advertised on Facebook
buddy, we don't need "consent" to have kids. The kid can kill themselves if they don't want to be on earth.
shit hole for you, but not for everyone
Wow
This is a really dark groupā¦ā¦
So you donāt value life or celebrate it at all.????
"they are a victim of circumstance and otherās choices, both the parents and society for not making a more appropriate world", whether or not this is true in any case, it is always beneficial to take responsibility for as many things as possible. When you are responsible for things, you are inclined to find the best solution without quitting. It also helps you not feel powerless as most people here do. It gives you a sense of agency/control over your life.
So 99% of the time, when the child grows up, it is not beneficial to blame someone else for their problems, even if they did not cause most of their problems. Alot of people in these communities blame their parents (everyone calls their parents narcissists and whatnot) for their unhappiness. And more or less, that is true, but it is not beneficial. I have found that putting responsibility on someone else makes you feel good and prevents you from taking action to solve the thing, because you already feel good so why bother. This is also why self pity is so dangerous. If you hate yourself, then blame the outside world for your flaws (you take the "woe is me" attitude) , then you feel good and in the moment stop caring more or less about actually fixing your flaws. So self pity creates inaction which exacerbates your flaws which creates more self hate.
Pretty much every emotionally successful person ever will tell you this exact same thing. Take responsibility for as much as possible.
>objectively unnecessary
False. It is subjectively unnecessary. If you want to create a meaning for all of it, you can, then it can be necessary for bettering yourself.
Why?
Thereās bad in this world but thereās also tons of beauty ā¦ā¦
Why is it immoral to have children ?
>psychology has proven that humans are genetically programmed to remember negative life events over positive ones
fucking dumbass. This is the exact opposite of what is true. look up the Pollyanna Principle. In general, we are more likely to remember the good than the bad. This has been supported with countless studies.
>As for the destruction of all life on Earth, it's just inevitable.
You can't know this for sure. You can say it is likely but not inevitable.
This is exactly how I feel! I have severe depression and several other mental disorders due to my childhood. I think it would be unbelievably cruel for me to reproduce.
fucking dumbass. you're using the incorrect asymmetry argument. unborn people are either:
being deprived of pleasure AND pain
OR not being deprived of EITHER because they can't know what pleasure nor pain is.
you can't apply your bullshit double standard to twist the logic. If "unborn people canāt be deprived of pleasure" like you say, then they can't be deprived of pain as well. They also have no perspective from which to NOT miss their existence (based off the absence of pain). I can't believe retards fall for your dogshit argument.
nor can they YEARN for it. It cancels out, just like the presence of good and bad when you are ALIVE..
So Iām a parent of a well taken care of teenager with a bright futureā¦..
In your opinion am I selfish?
When and why did you adopt this philosophy on mankind?
Can you explain as to why?
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Thought i would leave this here
Thought i would leave this here
you don't have to be extremely rich or have no responsibilities (NEET) to be happy. This is a lie sold to you. They say you need to be rich and have money. That is simply untrue. You could have all those things but be miserable. It is perfectly possible and likely to be happy without those things.
"slave labor" It is not slave labor. It is society bro. You can go live off the grid if you want. If you think working for your wage is "slave labor", then how else should it be done?
Bro you're an artist. That shit makes 0 money. Do something else for work. DO art on the side
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Death Is Coming....
Death Is Coming....
of course it is selfish to a degree. everything everyone does is selfish when u get down to it. An action cannot be wrong just because it is selfish. How are your parents narcissists? It's kind of obvious that you are kinda pulling that term out of your ass.
" I have to slave off to the system for the rest of my life" You can choose off the grid. nobody is forcing you to "slave" to the system. By definition it is not "slavery" because you are not forced to do work. Though it is beneficial for you.
you can get out of it bro. you have to take responsibility for every aspect of life.
Pro-Natalism and Hedonism/ Life is a gift mentality due to hedonism?Do Natalists say life is a gift, because they are essentially hedonists? And if so, would not that be particularly harmful as their children will most likely outlive them and they should think about the future and not just about minor hedonistic pleasures?
Natalist 'logic'Well? looks like tehy purposefully refuse to see the truth. Since when abcence of joy is bad when there is no capacity to be deprived?
Iāll never understandā¦
How can it beat in numbers if their entire ideology is to multiply in numbers while ours is the opposite? It makes no mathematical sense
I agree that suicide is very difficult and most people have an urge to live and not kill themselves, but if a person has nothing to live for but they don't commit suicide, then are they morally bad for prolonging their own suffering? If their parent is wrong for bringing a child into the world that suffers, then it is eventually the child decision to end their life or not correct? So if it is morally wrong to make a being suffer, then is the child now in the wrong?
r/truechildfree
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Do you wish for human kind to simply fade out through not reproduceing?
I agree with the general sentiment behind this post, however there could have been some more nuance. "You can have 10 of them" is not a very good example here, and demanding purges is not likely to yield good results.
As I wrote [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/10z6hoe/comment/j83vxth/?context=3):
>These are two very different concepts, and though the childfree and antinatalist communities overlap, it's important to avoid conflation. Let's not forget that antinatalists, while discouraging reproduction, actively encourage adoption ā ThĆ©ophile de Giraud even wrote a "Eulogy to adoption" in his antinatalist manifesto. Sure, all reasons to bring a new life into existence are ultimately selfish, but likewise there are *also* selfish reasons *not* to have kids ("I find kids annoying", "I want to spend my time and money on myself" etc.) ā but these are not the ones antinatalism, as an *ethical* position, is concerned with. I really wish we could remove "childfree but not antinatalist content" on this subreddit. This is, after all, not supposed to be an "anti-kids" group.
I have often expressed my dissatisfaction regarding the non-antinatalist childfree content on this sub. There's a [new mod team](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/110cg2f/new_mods_rule_changes_and_state_of_the_sub/) now that is taking a more hands-on approach to moderation, and a new rule (#5) was added, too, so I assume you will be seeing less of this kind of content here in the future.
I also recommend checking out Lawrence Anton's reasonable [take](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efoI1bSklew) on this topic.
how would i know that babies are exist before theyre born, i cant even comprehend the concepts.
**[Antinatalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism)**
>Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical position that views birth and procreation of sentient beings (including non-human animals) as morally wrong: antinatalists therefore argue that humans should abstain and, possibly, stop other animals from procreating. Some of the earliest surviving formulations of the idea that it would be better not to have been born can be found in ancient Greece. The term antinatalism (in opposition to the term natalism, pronatalism or pro-natalism) was used probably for the first time by ThƩophile de Giraud in his book L'art de guillotiner les procrƩateurs: Manifeste anti-nataliste.
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Win what? The lotto?
Well expressed, they don't deserve the slightest consideration, with a lukewarm attitude nothing is achieved.
Many present rights would be unthinkable in the past, and if there had not been the courage to cause riots, such rights wouldn't have been conquered, for example, in May 1968.
For now, the wrong done cannot be undone, but until it's protest with sufficient quality, the right to undo what has been done will not be conquered.
I read the mod post and i wish they would purposefully make this subreddit a beacon for compassionate antinatalism and direct hatred to /r/misanthropy
I donāt think there should be a place here for hating children, or really even hating parents. You calling someone a breeder isnāt likely to convince them to stop having kids, so why do it? Ethical compassionate philosophy is what will convince someone if they are capable of being convinced more often than not. If our goal is to prevent birth because life has a distinct chance of causing unnecessary harm, i personally dont feel as though this sub is really doing that very well.
I have wanted humans to be extinct as long as I have been alive and have always been ashamed to be one
Can someone please give me some productive lines of communication as to what this group is about?Inquiring minds over hereā¦..
You canāt make objective arguments about ***any*** moral position. It sounds like youāre on the wrong sub if thatās your basis for natalism. Objectively, there is as much basis for other acts as not having a kid, but both are meaningless in the grand scale. Thereās no objective moral basis for ANY action or inaction.
morals are subjective, but creating harm upon others is wrong in almost all definitions of morality. the only way to justify birth is egoism or by saying you simply do not care if a child might suffer, because itās always a possibility in our reality
i've seen that study too. i'm jewish and it's a pretty controversial one because it is specifically by Haredi metrics (only listing Haredi Jews who have two Jewish parents or a Jewish mother). there's a lot of contention right now because it doesn't factor in people with one Jewish parent (especially a Jewish father) or converts. ironically, by their standards i would count in this study since i have two Jewish parents. but it's also deliberately excluding a lot of people to artificially inflate their numbers. and much like evangelicals, a lot of their population tends to leave once they hit adulthood for the exact same reason a lot of evangelicals abandon it. fundamentalists are terrible at retention regardless of the religion. there's a lot of really restrictive rules (as one example, you can't flip light switches on saturdays, that's the tip of the iceberg) and that tends to burn a lot of people out, and since judaism has no real concept of hell this means there's no spiritual punishment for not doing those things. the actual punishment is just being permanently separated from your family and friends if you break the rules.
to be fair, i was raised orthodox and was never part of any haredi community (i'm obviously not one of them anymore if i'm here on reddit lol, now i'm just jewish with no denomination), but that study does not reflect just how often orthodox and haredi jews end up abandoning their communities because of how fucking miserable it is to exist in these communities (at least according to those i've met/know who grew up there). the vast majority of jews don't belong to either denomination and do not adhere to most of these (made-up) restrictions (they're barely 10% of jews in america at best iirc) and it's a really complicated nuanced thing that i'm oversimplifying like crazy to keep it within character limits. their visibility comes from their proximity to the same evangelicals who put people like trump in office. i would be considered pretty observant for an average jew, but this inter-denominational "fight" between this tiny vocal minority and everyone else has been going on for a few decades now.
though tbf, antinatalism is not at all a philosophy you'd find in most jewish spaces and i'm a huge outlier for being an AN jew in the first place
I literraly had to leave this sub 'cause of how many vegan post there were, like, how does veganism as to do with anything?
slaves following the program of their design
I'm not as anti-life as some of these depressed mofo's but yeah, this is the place for it. I'd expect something like /r/childfree to bring the less morose takes.
Idiocracy
You don't want the whole cake; you just want the sprinkles on top.
Go read some regretful mom stories or lurk r/breakingmom. Or even just stories about the traumatic experience of pregnancy and giving birth.
I read an article recently that you might be interested in: https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/viral/tiktok-girl-with-the-list-pregnancy-birth-rcna66810
itās about this list that has āpros and consā of childbirth and so on, as you can imagine the list of horrific things that can happen is pretty long. If (yikes I hope never) I ever had baby fever, these are things Iāve always kept in mind, and I think itās awesome someoneās bothered to make a conveniently readable list like this (directly found here- https://yuniquethoughtslist.wixsite.com/yuni-s-pros-and-cons/the-list )
Anyway, just something that came to mind reading your post. I have to get up in 3 hours to go work for about 10 hours (a reason I donāt ever want to force another consciousness into existence ! working to survive this abusive society) though I have more thoughts. I wish you the best and for clarity in your thinking on this!
Couldn't have been said better. There's a big difference in ''hating children'' and ''feeling sorry'' for them.
**[The World Without Us](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Without_Us)**
>The World Without Us is a 2007 non-fiction book about what would happen to the natural and built environment if humans suddenly disappeared, written by American journalist Alan Weisman and published by St. Martin's Thomas Dunne Books. It is a book-length expansion of Weisman's own February 2005 Discover article "Earth Without People". Written largely as a thought experiment, it outlines, for example, how cities and houses would deteriorate, how long man-made artifacts would last, and how remaining lifeforms would evolve.
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Antinatalism WELCOMES parents!We need a serious purge of this sub. People are starting to treat it like the ugly sister of r/childfree and while they often overlap, they have fundamentally different principles
You can have adoptive children. You can have 10 of them if you want and you'll be the prime example of what an antinatalist is - a person that makes an informed decision not to reproduce
And even people with biological children who had them before becoming antinatalists should find their place here. Of course, deciding to have children AT THE SAME TIME as being antinatalist would be hypocritical. But sometimes it's too late and a parent of one child is better than a parent of two if you know what I mean
This is NOT a childfree sub
Yeah ; copy pasting from the sidebar 'Affiliates':
>/r/vhemt \- as we support the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
as crazy as it might sound, [there's even a .org site just about that movement](https://www.vhemt.org/)
Yes, you are right ā I'm actually writing my M.A. thesis on the famous *sententia Theognidis* (eleg. 425ā428) from the perspective of contemporary antinatalist philosophy.
>Ļį½±Ī½ĻĻĪ½ Ī¼į½²Ī½ Ī¼į½“ Ļįæ¦Ī½Ī±Ī¹ į¼ĻĪ¹ĻĪøĪæĪ½į½·ĪæĪ¹ĻĪ¹Ī½ į¼ĻĪ¹ĻĻĪæĪ½,
Ī¼Ī·Ī“į¾æ į¼ĻĪ¹Ī“ĪµįæĪ½ Ī±į½Ī³į½°Ļ į½Ī¾į½³ĪæĻ į¼ ĪµĪ»į½·ĪæĻ
,
Ļį½»Ī½ĻĪ± Ī“į¾æ į½
ĻĻĻ į½¤ĪŗĪ¹ĻĻĪ± Ļį½»Ī»Ī±Ļ į¼ĪĪ“Ī±Īæ ĻĪµĻįæĻĪ±Ī¹
ĪŗĪ±į½¶ ĪŗĪµįæĻĪøĪ±Ī¹ ĻĪæĪ»Ī»į½“Ī½ Ī³įæĪ½ į¼ĻĪ±Ī¼Ī·Ļį½±Ī¼ĪµĪ½ĪæĪ½.
>"It is best of all for mortals not to be born and not to look upon the rays of the piercing sun, but once born it is best to pass the gates of Hades as quickly as possible and to lie under a large heap of earth." (Loeb translation)
About the preaching to the choir: Yes, that's a common problem in internet communities, with their own filter bubbles, echo chambers and circlejerk culture, especially on Reddit. That's why these debates (that usually take place outside of antinatalism communities) are so important, even if only to spread awareness.
[Here's](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vystopia/comments/1100q17/comment/j88sl3c/) the abstract of the other paper I mentioned. I appreciate your interest, I'll gladly send you the paper once it's ready!
My mother writing beautifully about what they donāt tell expecting parentsāWhat didnāt they tell me at ante natal class?
They didnāt tell me I was about to hand my whole life over to fate, to the capricious gods of good and bad luck because I was about to give birth to someone that I loved more than myself, more than I could imagine, but someone I couldnāt protect from the vicissitudes of life, from the cruelty of other children, from unkind adults and from the world.
They didnāt tell me that, like any parent, I was forever hitching my peace of mind to that of another.
They didnāt tell me I was now a hostage to fortune.
They didnāt tell me that.ā
"Inmendham's sabotage"
Yeah they should adopt think it's interesting most people want to have their own kids.
I share your enthusiasm in the comments about providing anecdotal evidence that brainwashing didnāt work on you. However, letās not be blind to the fact that brainwashing does works on the majority of people.
There are entire nations of muslim fanatics, there was a nation of Nazis, thereās a nation of Putinists, then North Korea, etc.
Yes some people there just pretend to believe to survive in those places but the most do believe.
how can you possibly expect to think rationally if you hate your life so much? I find this is the case for many people who claim anti natalism. There are countless studies proving that you are not thinking clearest (and your memory is impaired, and a whole host of other things) when you are depressed. Given this, how can you argue for antinatalism?
it's really confusing since a lot of people here argue that since we have the ability to suffer, that this is a reason to not bring a kid into the world. If the suffering is that bad, then why are you tolerating it? I think that certainly if you live in a horrible situation (example: poverty), then you most likely shouldn't have kids (the suffering would be immense and potentially unescapable for the kid, but it would also bring the parent down). But in situations where the situation is not that bad, I cannot agree.
"Everyone here is too altruistic to do that." In my experience on this subreddit, most people here are not having kids because they missed the opportunity or they believe they will never have the CHANCE to do so, so they cope by believing it is immoral and they are doing the right thing. I don't think this kind of belief usually stems from selflessness...
This should be posted on r/NotHowGirlsWork.
If that guy thinks sex causes lactation, heās never done it.
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Woman has no idea who her baby's father is, so she has all the guys she slept with a month before getting pregnant show up to the baby shower
Woman has no idea who her baby's father is, so she has all the guys she slept with a month before getting pregnant show up to the baby shower
"Inmendham's sabotage"
im never going to have children but i feel lik giving up on antinatalismIt's not that i dont find it logical or meaningful anymore, it just doesnt seem feasible. it goes completely against human nature, and absolutely will never ever be popular opinion. humans would have to grow an immense amount of empathy to override their ego's, and how is that ever going to be achieved in a world where being gay is still against the law in many countries. religion is rife in most countries and theres 1000's of years of culture and religion that we'd have to convince the entire human populace should be eliminated. i cant bring it up and vent any of my beliefs to friends or family because im extremely stigmatised. the last time i brought it up in school a white girl accused me ( a brown girl ) of being a eugenicist and then tried to say that antinatalism has its roots in the apartheid because its creator was from south africa. its also very painful to hold these beliefs, to choose to not be ignorant to the horrors of existence, and then go on being silent, knowing the only people who will understand me are those on the internet.
being an antinatalist is legitimately soul destroying and i think im going to choose to be ignorant because i cant take the emotional toll anymore.
pronatalists think we hate their kidsor their āfuture kids.ā
Which is why they get so weirdly defensive over our stance in this sub.
I donāt think they realize that most of us donāt hate childrenāwe FEEL SORRY for children.
My go-to explanation is this. There are 8 billion people in the world. Of that 8 billion, I would be willing to estimate 1 billion live happy lives where they suffer the minimal amount. You knowāthe kind of suffering we ALL have to experience at one point (grief from the death of loved ones, anxious uncertainty about the future, and then ultimately your own death, however painful or scary that might be). So other than those three inevitable feelings, those 1 billion people (and Iām being SO generous with that number) never experience suffering in any other way.
That still leaves 7/8 of the population that will be born into poverty, will be born with mental health issues, will be born dreadfully unlucky, will be born in developing countries, will be born to be cogs in the soul crushing machine.
The antinatalist philosophy is a probability game. It is 7 times more likely that you will give birth to someone who will suffer greatly, and therefore merciful to simply not give birth.
That doesnāt mean I hate the children who have already been born, only that when I see eight of them at one time, statistically speaking, seven of them will suffer a lot and one of them will suffer a little. I feel bad for all eight regardless, because technically they didnāt have to suffer at all.
But then I realize that non-existence is so foreign to people that they think itās the same as dying, so instead of listening to understand, they think Iām advocating for baby killing.
This sub has an eugenics problem.Antinatalism isn't eugenics but some of y'all seemingly haven't realized. There's way too many people saying that the poor or people with disabilities should be the first ones to stop reproducing. Too many "I bet this person wishes they'd never been born" when specifically seeing someone with a disability.
I only exist because two narcissists craved authority & power over another human beingDue to actions of two narcissists, I have to slave off to the system for the rest of my life, as well as deal with whatever other bullshit that comes my way. If it isn't authority and power, then it's some other selfish reason they chose to have me. Or maybe they just didn't want to put on a condom.
Thanks mom and dad
Why do āpro-lifersā make such bad arguments?Every argument against abortion is a false equivalency, strawman, or making up their own word definitions.
Why do they compare never being born in the first place to actually being here and being killed or otherwise dying?
Even if you argue from their perspective in that the unborn is a person you will still come to the conclusion of pro-choice when you think logically.
A: a potential person not even born yet literally inside somebodyās body doesnāt get rights over the actual person already here or B: even if it were a person she still has every right to get rid of it because itās inside her body.
Itās also disturbing how instead of wanting children to be born wanted, loved, and to parents that can afford it or never born to begin with they see children as a punishment for having sex.
They claim to be pro child, but the things they believe in harm actual children
āHow can it be selfish not to bring something into the world that doesnāt exist on any level?ā After pondering in this, I realized, What if some people actually believe that babies exist in some way before being incarnated here. Do you believe that babies exist on some level before conception?So I recently posted a quote by Ricky Gervais that stated, āItās a stupid thing to say, isnāt it? How can not having children be selfish? How can it be selfish to not bring something into the world that doesnāt exist on any level? Itās not like thereās a big line or cage of unborn fetuses going: āWe want to be bornā. It doesnāt make any sense.ā -Ricky Gervais
This seemed to resonate with many of you judging by the agreements of upvotes. I began to contemplate on this quote and really wondered which beliefs other have on this subject. I know some people believe in re-incarnation, and some believe in powers and energy of different types.
I really want to see where everyone sits on this subject, so I made a poll. Please give it a vote and add a comment. I would love to discuss this further.
For the sake of this poll, Iām going to keep it very simple, as YES, NO, MAYBE, or OTHER answer choices. It should really be a YES or NO answer, but Iām trying to keep it as fair as possible.
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Yeah because only pregnant people can experience bad sleep
Yeah because only pregnant people can experience bad sleep
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New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
Weāve heard you. Weāve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone ā for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed ā but we trust that the changes weāre implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, weāve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency ā an explicit philosophy, even ā to ālet the downvotes do their thingā by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
ā¢ Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules ā regardless of whether we wish they are ā remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the subās continued existence here on Reddit.
ā¢ Further to this we have added a new rule: āContent should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.ā This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isnāt explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isnāt obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
ā Before explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.ā
ā After explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I donāt think itās inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates wonāt necessarily relieve them of moral burden.ā
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (weāre one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isnāt the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you havenāt a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try āround. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, Iām antinastylist. Iāve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20ās. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. Iām pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation ā in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different ābrandā of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (ē”ēę®åä¼/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term āantinatalism,ā but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isnāt or shouldnāt be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We havenāt seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
Make a post on /r/askwomen, do a Twitter poll, make a surveymonkey and get as many responses as possible however you want. Ask a therapist that specializes in trauma. It's not just my experience.
No, I can't guess the lottery numbers. Yes, I do think women don't feel safe to tell you this because of the way you're talking right now. Women's intuition keeps us safer so it's a strong sense. We intuitively don't offer potentially dangerous information (ie I've been a victim) to unsafe people unless we have some kind of disorder that makes us overshare.
Edit: regarding your snarky "that DEFINITELY happened to them" comment...if they're over 18 and we're talking about any kind of sexual assault? Yeah. Yes. Unless they're basically Rapunzel.
This youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/@BeatrizVotto/about is a perfect example of Parents are exploiting their children on YouTube for fame and easy money. I have already flagged them, I hope some of you could help me take down this site. click on the link then on the flag.
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You literally melt my heart ā¤ļø
what are yalls opinion on surrogacy?honestly, itās hard times out there and any way you can make money is fine with me. if they didnāt pick you for a surrogate they wouldāve picked someone else. im not mad at the surrogate tbh
We all have to deal with crawling over speed bumps by schools and stopping for school buses because kids contain zero magic and parents are incredibly insecure. This person is a burden to everyone she knows and is well aware of it. Great example of projection in place of reflection.
He was just sharing his life experiences.
According to Rob Craig Kirkpatrick in The Evolution Of Human Homosexuality natalist policy is an indicator of expansionist cultures.
Hey there, thank you for your submission.
However, it was removed for the following reason:
this subreddit is, first and foremost, a place to discuss antinatalism, the ethical position that coming into existence is always a harm and bringing children (or sentient life) into existence is, therefore, morally wrong.
While there is some significant overlap between the childfree community and the antinatalist community, it is important to separate these two concepts so as to avoid conflation.
There are antinatalists who have biological children before arriving at antinatalism (such as Jim Crawford), and even more have adopted already existing children (such as Miguel Steiner) and are actively encouraging adoption over procreation (such as ThƩophile de Giraud).
"I don't want to have children because children are annoying" and "I don't want to have children because I want to live my life, spend my money, etc. however I want" are certainly valid reasons for someone not to have (or raise) kids, but those are not antinatalist in nature.
You may consider posting it here instead:
ā¢ childfree
ā¢ childfreecirclejerk
ā¢ CFandPC_TOTHEMAX
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Please someone marry me I hate school so much I just want to cook and clean and raise children please šIs nearly a child herselfš³
Please someone marry me I hate school so much I just want to cook and clean and raise children please šIs nearly a child herselfš³
Hey there, thanks for your submission. However, it was removed because it is a repost (rule #4), see [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/10yz5tp/booooo_cringe/).
Hi, thanks for your submission. You seem to have submitted an image post. Please remember that [Reddit requires all identifiable information such as names, usernames and subreddit titles to be blacked out in images](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043066452). If your submission contains any instances of these kinds of information, please remove your post. Afterwards, please feel free to make a new post after editing your image to black out all instances of such information. If this message doesn't apply to your post, please feel free to ignore it. Thank you for your cooperation!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Gotta love some (in)human(e) experimentation
Gotta love some (in)human(e) experimentation
Hello, I disagree with how the conclusions follow your premises.
If I break down your premises,
P1: "good life"= "desire fulfillment"
P2: "good person" deserves "good life" U does not deserve "excess and/or unjust harm"
Another way to write this would be,
P1: "good life"= "desire fulfillment"
P2: "good person" deserves "good life"
P3: "good person" does not deserve "excess and/or unjust harm"
A conclusion supported by these by the transitive property would be:
C1: "good person" deserves "desire fulfillment"
However, you have established the follow conclusions:
C1: "good person" deserves "desire fulfillment" given "other person" is not "harmed"
This can follow given a preestablished rule of the other person as of equal weight as the good person.
C2: If "desire fulfillment" is not created, then "harm" is created
This should be one of your established premises. This does not follow from the premises. The lack of something deserved does not equate a harm unless it is established as a premise.
C3: Since "good person" does not create "desire fulfillment" therefore "Life" is unjust therefore "harm" is created.
This is not a conclusion from your premises as your premises do not declare that good person does not create desire fulfillment. This is also a premise you will see rejected without a declaration of presupposition or evidence. Also, it is bad form to introduce the concept of "Life" unless it is in one of your premises.
C4: Given "good person" does not deserve "harm", "good person" should not be created.
This follows given your previous premises and conclusions. The only thing is that potentiality should be introduced in a premise, not a conclusion
Well you'll get antinatalists who hate children and antinatalists who like children. Even some natalists hate children in reality.
People who are here *purely* because they dislike children are better off at r/childfree as they're likely confused about the philosophy.
I donāt hate kids. I love kids. I have an adopted son and have been a foster mom. I donāt believe in adding more children to an overpopulated and suffering planet when there are millions of children who are already here and in need. I think having biological children in order to create a ācloneā or a ālegacyā is an unhealthy way to approach parenthood. But I genuinely love kids. I just donāt want to see them suffer.
What's the Age Range of this Group?Just wondering
does anyone on this sub actually have children?as the title reads, i would love to hear from anyone from this sub who are/used to be strongly antinatalist but ended up having children. You could have been antinatalist all along but still had children, or realised youre antinatalist after having children.
i would love to ask: did you succumb to pressure to have kids? do you regret having children? what made you realise you are antinatalist if you realised it after having children? what made you end up having kids?
although this question excludes having kids via adoption, i would love you hear your experiences as well.
english is not my first language so i apologise if there are any bad language use.
What historical or mythical figures do you reckon could have been anti-natalists?
Eternal hell suffering-Religious have more reason to not bring another human into existence
Is this sub religious at all?I'm not an outsider, this is a curiosity question. I don't think religion should have anything to do with AN, but I am but one in a sea of many. My goal with this poll is to expand my understanding of the world.
The woman was too stunned to speak. 11 CHILDRENā¦.WITH 8 DIFFERENT FATHERS?? And wants 30??
Quality AN content has barely any chance of reaching the frontpage anymore, everything gets drowned out by childfree memes.I noticed that we've reached a point where there is pretty much only one specific type of content that gets to the frontpage: Outrage posts about parents or their disabled children and to a lesser extent childfree memes.
Those posts consistently receive hundreds of upvotes (just browse through the [top posts](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/top/) of this month for example), while higher effort AN posts such as discussions, new papers or AN projects stay below hundred upvotes and get drowned out quickly.
Browsing by [/new](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/new/) paints the same picture: Natalists posts stay at 0 (downvoted), everything else hovers somewhere under 100 upvotes but as soon as it is a picture of a disabled child, BAM, hundreds of upvotes.
If my interest were in karma farming I am quite sure I could play this sub like a fiddle. Unfortunately my interest however is discussing and promoting antinatalism instead, something this sub is not suitable at all for anymore as a result.
Now, one might say, if that is the content people vote for everything is working fine, however I certainly find it odd if the main antinatalism subreddit is not the best place to post AN content anymore. Furthermore this sub is still the place that gets noticed accross reddit as the "face of antinatalism" (most don't even know it is a philosophy outside of reddit) and some of the content that gets posted here certainly hurts the reputation of antinatalsim as a whole.
I just saw the new mod announcement and am glad that something is being done, however I don't think the small policy changes discussed in there will be enough. It seems the overpowering by memes and low effort content is something many subs have faced when gaining popularity. In quite a few other subs I frequent this has lead to meme or picture posts being restricted to certain days of the week only for example. Maybe that could be an option here as well.
(Note: I wrote this before I saw the new mod post, but still decided to post it since the observations might still be relevant. In any case hope some changes happen and thanks as well as good luck to the new mods!)
Ban misanthropic antinatalism posts in this subCreate a separate sub for misanthropic antinatalism, child haters, and climate birth strikers.if we want to popularize antinatalism we should only focus on Philanthropic Antinatalism
There is a separate sub for childfree people. Antinatalism is not childfreedom, it's a philosophy questioning the ethics of creating new human- I have seen Antinatalist parents with adopted kids
āParental licensesā- a bad ideaI often see this idea thrown around in the sub.
How do you enforce it? Anyone who can get impregnated could be by someone who can in a short amount of time in the privacy of their home. Itās basically not possible to physically stop people from doing so.
So is it punishable afterwards? Whatās the punishment?
If the penalty is prison, the child will grow up with less parental involvement. Thatās not helpful to the child, the penalty would punish an innocent child and probably increase suffering for punishmentās sake alone.
If the penalty is a fine, rich people who donāt meet criteria will easily bypass the system and poor people will have less money to spend on the child. It will make supporting the child even harder.
If the penalty is taking the child away, at that point itās just forced surrender to foster care or adoption, which is almost always worse than just having the parent raise the kid. Children in these systems often fair worse and are subjected to abandonment and abuse.
So what do you even do? Whatās the benefit?
SO HAS FINALLY COME TO SHARING MY BELIEFS! HE'S AN ANTINATALIST!AAAAAAAAAA He just emailed me saying he's been adopting an antinatalist worldview since late last month.
When I first introduced the idea of antinatalism to him, he was skeptical and didn't understand why I felt so strongly about this issue. But I guess over time, as we talked more about the topic and explored different perspectives, he began to see things from my point of view.
The last I talked with him (we're in a ldr), I seriously tried to emphasize on the fact of suffering as the epicentre of life and the very easy way to avoid it. I guess I could finally spark some realisation in him concerning the fact that procreation and the creation of new life is not a positive or ethical thing. I did get why he thought they were, he was born in a religious household after all.
I'm even happier as it came right after I was rebuked by extended fam about being a d\*ck Refer to the penultimate post). I was concerned that me being an antinatalist was concerning to our relationship, and well, I was finally able to talk some sense to have us see the world through the same lens!!!!!!!
TDLR: My boyfriend started condoning antinatalism (at last!), saving our relationship for the better!
EDIT: We're a gay couple and it was a difference in our worldview that we had, not about me being the one not wanting to have a child.
Anyone who wants humans to go extinct?I imagine a world where humans have become anti natalist and after the death of the last being, we all go extinct. What do you think?
Antinatalism and Buddhism connection?Just watched the youtube video on Antinatalism by Einzelganger. I can't post it since it says it's been posted here before...
I found the part about Buddhism relating to Antinatalism with Nirvana and the end of suffering. From my understanding, the end of your reincarnation cycle which Buddhists believe in equals the end of suffering and this is the highest achievement. Any Buddhist antinatalists or at least antinatalists with some interest in Buddhism?
I'm not really interested in traditions, so I've found it difficult to delve into Buddhism in the past when I've had run ins with its chants, ceremonies etc, but I'm intrigued by the philosophy part.
Please ban misanthropic antinatalism from this sub. Calling people breeders etc should be stopped. The only way we can promote antinatalism is by philanthropic antinatalism. We are already labeled as child haters when the truth in my case is I love my kids so much I don't want them to suffer.
Childfree is not antinatalism, An antinatalist can adopt kids
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
Weāve heard you. Weāve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone ā for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed ā but we trust that the changes weāre implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, weāve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency ā an explicit philosophy, even ā to ālet the downvotes do their thingā by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
ā¢ Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules ā regardless of whether we wish they are ā remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the subās continued existence here on Reddit.
ā¢ Further to this we have added a new rule: āContent should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.ā This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isnāt explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isnāt obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
ā Before explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.ā
ā After explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I donāt think itās inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates wonāt necessarily relieve them of moral burden.ā
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (weāre one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isnāt the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you havenāt a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try āround. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, Iām antinastylist. Iāve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20ās. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. Iām pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation ā in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different ābrandā of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (ē”ēę®åä¼/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term āantinatalism,ā but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isnāt or shouldnāt be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We havenāt seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
Weāve heard you. Weāve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone ā for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed ā but we trust that the changes weāre implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, weāve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency ā an explicit philosophy, even ā to ālet the downvotes do their thingā by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
ā¢ Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules ā regardless of whether we wish they are ā remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the subās continued existence here on Reddit.
ā¢ Further to this we have added a new rule: āContent should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.ā This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isnāt explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isnāt obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
ā Before explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.ā
ā After explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I donāt think itās inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates wonāt necessarily relieve them of moral burden.ā
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (weāre one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isnāt the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you havenāt a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try āround. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, Iām antinastylist. Iāve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20ās. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. Iām pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation ā in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different ābrandā of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (ē”ēę®åä¼/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term āantinatalism,ā but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isnāt or shouldnāt be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We havenāt seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
Open call for moderator applicationsDear r/Antinatalism subscribers,
As you may know, weāve grown a great deal ā over 40,000 new members in under a year ā and weāre finding that the current mod team isnāt able to manage the modqueue as effectively as we once were. Being one of the more controversial subs on reddit, itās more important here than most that reports are monitored regularly so that offending posts and comments are removed in a timely fashion. Our philosophy against censorship is at ever-increasing odds with redditās philosophy of making advertising money through banning content that advertisers donāt like ā theyāre always looking for reasons to shut us down, and itās critical to our continued existence that we donāt give them reason to do so. Having a larger mod team that can remove problematic content expeditiously is key to that continued existence.
To that end, we are excited to announce that we are officially opening up r/antinatalism mod applications! We have a thriving community of antinatalists of all ages, races, religions, philosophies, countries (ā¦and time zones!) that generate more antinatalist discussion every day than was created every year before the advent of the internet ā that discussion needs your help :)
A little bit about the ideal moderators and moderatoresses we are looking for:
- We welcome debate and opinions, even when problematic or controversial. We believe that the best way to defeat bad beliefs and opinions is to disarm them through reason, not censorship. Weāre opposed to censorship beyond what is absolutely, positively necessary for the continued function of the sub, meaning that we remove only submissions which violate redditās sitewide rules, or our very limited set of rules. Moderating r/antinatalism is very often an exercise in leaving up content you disagree with strongly.
- We are less-than-anonymous. Both Amanda and myself (the seniormost mods) intentionally link their online and offline identities. In the past, the moderation team has had weekly Zoom video calls where we discuss relevant matters and coƶrdinate moderation strategy. Whilst we respect that there will be cases where circumstances prevent moderators from revealing their identity in this way, we have a strong preference for moderators who are comfortable attending these calls. (Note: We arenāt sure weāre going to be bringing back the calls, but weād like the option of doing so.)
- Engaged and long-term members of the community are particularly encouraged to apply. We will not be selecting moderators based on their flavour of antinatalist philosophy ā as long as you enforce the rules objectively, you donāt even have to be an antinatalist to apply! ā but a history of active participation on the sub is a positive factor amongst our selection criteria.
- As our userbase is spread throughout the world, it would be great to have mods in different time zones. We encourage global submissions from moderators ā remote time zones are an asset for moderation purposes, not a liability.
If you are interested in becoming a moderator, weāre interested in hearing from you! Please DM this account (u/ANgroupMOD) with responses to the following get-to-know-you questions:
- Do you have any moderation experience? If so, on which subreddit(s) and for how long?
- Do you prefer taking a heavy or light moderating hand?
- What is your personal ethos in managing differences of opinion?
- How many hours per week would you be willing to commit to moderating?
- Which timezone are you in? (GMTĀ±X)
- In addition to modqueue management, would you be interested in being involved with other needed tasks in the sub, such as rule development?
- What do you envision being able to bring to the sub that you feel to be lacking currently? (If thatās simply your time, thatās okay too! Weāre all volunteers.)
- Would you be willing to go through some Zoom training to properly run r/Antinatalism?
- Are you an active AN content producer (please provide links), and are you involved in other AN communities off of Reddit?
As a general rule, we are transparent (sometimes to a fault) and encouraging of public discussion. We are even one of the largest subs on the site who have chosen to make their modlog public (you can access this through the sidebar link). However, for this one specific process, we are making an exception to that rule. Please note that this thread will be locked to new comments, and that drama-related comments and threads will be subject to removal for the next fortnight. (Note: We do see the irony in censoring content made in response to a post looking for team members who wonāt censor. Past experience on the sub has made it such that we feel this is unfortunately necessary as a very temporary and exceptional measure. We have only invoked this policy once before in the history of the sub and hope to make this the last.)
Thank you for your consideration and we look forwards to hearing from you!
ā r/Antinatalism mod team
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
Weāve heard you. Weāve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone ā for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed ā but we trust that the changes weāre implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, weāve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency ā an explicit philosophy, even ā to ālet the downvotes do their thingā by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
ā¢ Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules ā regardless of whether we wish they are ā remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the subās continued existence here on Reddit.
ā¢ Further to this we have added a new rule: āContent should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.ā This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isnāt explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isnāt obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
ā Before explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.ā
ā After explicitisation: āHere is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I donāt think itās inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates wonāt necessarily relieve them of moral burden.ā
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (weāre one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isnāt the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you havenāt a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try āround. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, Iām antinastylist. Iāve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20ās. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. Iām pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation ā in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different ābrandā of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (ē”ēę®åä¼/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term āantinatalism,ā but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isnāt or shouldnāt be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We havenāt seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
Having a child knowing you have an irreversible medical issue should be child abuseThat baby will struggle for itās whole life and will be bullied and discriminated against. All because this woman thought it was a good idea to have a baby.
First off, I hope to see more posts like this on this subreddit.
I totally understand the fascination with human intelligence and potential, and there are many great things to enjoy and to discover that can make a life feel worth living (as in worth *continuing*). But our existence, with all its beauty and marvel, comes at a great cost. And we must not turn a blind eye to this dark side of human history ā and future. Ulrich Horstmann wrote about this at length in his excellent book "Das Untier". (I wrote an introduction to the book for non-German speakers [here](https://np.reddit.com/r/Efilism/comments/wecwik/ulrich_horstmanns_das_untier_1983_a_work_of/).)
Your professor's reply also reminds me of an anecdote in the [*Protrepticus*](http://www.protrepticus.info/protr2017x20.pdf) about Anaxagoras, who, according to Karim Akerma, was the first major philosopher to offer an 'anthropodicy' (i.e. a reason why a person would choose to come into existence rather than never to come into existence):
>ĪĪ±į½¶ į¼Ī½Ī±Ī¾Ī±Ī³ĻĻĪ±Ī½ Ī“Ī ĻĪ±ĻĪ¹Ī½ Īµį¼°ĻĪµįæĪ½ į¼ĻĻĻĪ·ĪøĪĪ½ĻĪ± ĻĪÆĪ½ĪæĻ į¼Ī½ į¼Ī½ĪµĪŗĪ± į¼Ī»ĪæĪ¹ĻĪæ Ī³ĪµĪ½ĪĻĪøĪ±Ī¹ ĻĪ¹Ļ ĪŗĪ±į½¶ Ī¶įæĪ½, į¼ĻĪæĪŗĻĪÆĪ½Ī±ĻĪøĪ±Ī¹ ĻĻį½øĻ Ļį½“Ī½ į¼ĻĻĻĪ·ĻĪ¹Ī½ į½”Ļ āĪ¤Īæįæ¦ ĪøĪµĪ¬ĻĪ±ĻĪøĪ±Ī¹ \[Ļį½° ĻĪµĻį½¶\] Ļį½øĪ½ Īæį½ĻĪ±Ī½į½øĪ½ ĪŗĪ±į½¶ <Ļį½°> ĻĪµĻį½¶ Ī±į½Ļį½øĪ½ į¼ĻĻĻĪ± ĻĪµ ĪŗĪ±į½¶ ĻĪµĪ»Ī®Ī½Ī·Ī½ ĪŗĪ±į½¶ į¼„Ī»Ī¹ĪæĪ½ā, į½”Ļ Ļįæ¶Ī½ į¼Ī»Ī»ĻĪ½ Ī³Īµ ĻĪ¬Ī½ĻĻĪ½ Īæį½Ī“ĪµĪ½į½øĻ į¼Ī¾ĪÆĻĪ½ į½Ī½ĻĻĪ½.
>
>"And they say that when someone asked Anaxagoras for what reason anyone might choose to come to be born and to live, he replied to the question by saying that it was āto be an observer of the sky and the stars around it, as well as moon and sun,ā since everything else at any rate is worth nothing."
Hey there, u/XxMid-night_SunxX. Yes, most definitely!
ThƩophile de Giraud wrote a fascinating article about this topic.
- ThĆ©ophile de Giraud: Antinatalism in Early Christianity, in: KateÅina LochmanovĆ” (ed.), History of Antinatalism: How Philosophy Has Challenged the Question of Procreation, 2020, pp. 69ā88.
(Also available as a standalone book:
- ThƩophile de Giraud: The Childfree Christ: Antinatalism in Early Christianity, 2021.)
Other than that, there's
- Martin Smith: [No Baby No Cry: Christian Antinatalism](https://theselfishparent.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nbnc4_4.pdf), 2013.
- P. Tiable: 2nd Half of the Truth, http://2ndhalfofthetruth.com/ (also check out [āAntinatalismā ā in search of the answer that Christianity hinted at long ago](https://christian-antinatalism.medium.com/antinatalism-in-search-of-the-answer-that-christianity-hinted-at-long-ago-f10ec301932d))
There's even a small subreddit, r/christianantinatalism.
I myself am not religious (I like to call myself an "agnostic Gnostic"!), but I happened to have taught a course at university last semester on the topic of "Judeo-Christian antinatalism?". For this purpose, I also compiled a somewhat comprehensive reader of antinatalist passages in the Bible and the church fathers, and I organized a guest lecture with the renowned antinatalist philosopher Karim Akerma, who prepared a presentation about the same topic.
If you're interested, or just curious, feel free to send a DM.
edit: formatting, links added
Thank you for your submission.
However, it was removed for the following reason:
r/antinatalism is, first and foremost, a place to discuss antinatalism, the ethical position that coming into existence is always a harm and bringing children (or sentient life) into existence is, therefore, morally wrong.
While there is some significant overlap between the childfree community and the antinatalist community, it is important to separate these two concepts so as to avoid conflation.
There are antinatalists who have biological children before arriving at antinatalism (such as Jim Crawford), and even more have adopted already existing children (such as Miguel Steiner) and are actively encouraging adoption (such as ThƩophile de Giraud).
"I don't want to have children because children are annoying" and "I don't want to have children because I want to live my life, spend my money, etc. however I want" are certainly valid reasons for someone not to have (or raise) kids, but those are not antinatalist in nature.
You may consider posting it here instead:
ā¢ childfree
ā¢ childfreecirclejerk
ā¢ CFandPC_TOTHEMAX
Hi, thanks for your submission. You seem to have submitted an image post. Please remember that [Reddit requires all identifiable information such as names, usernames and subreddit titles to be blacked out in images](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043066452). If your submission contains any instances of these kinds of information, please remove your post. Afterwards, please feel free to make a new post after editing your image to black out all instances of such information. If this message doesn't apply to your post, please feel free to ignore it. Thank you for your cooperation!
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You got what you wanted.
You got what you wanted.
Hey there, u/u/stressxstresss! Thank you for your submission.
However, it was removed for the following reason:
r/antinatalism is, first and foremost, a place to discuss antinatalism, the ethical position that coming into existence is always a harm and bringing children (or sentient life) into existence is, therefore, morally wrong.
While there is some significant overlap between the childfree community and the antinatalist community, it is important to separate these two concepts so as to avoid conflation.
There are antinatalists who have biological children before arriving at antinatalism (such as Jim Crawford), and even more have adopted already existing children (such as Miguel Steiner) and are actively encouraging adoption over procreation (such as ThƩphile de Giraud).
"I don't want to have children because children are annoying" and "I don't want to have children because I want to live my life, spend my money, etc. however I want" are certainly valid reasons for someone not to have (or raise) kids, but those are not antinatalist in nature.
You may consider posting it here instead:
ā¢ r/childfree
ā¢ r/childfreecirclejerk
ā¢ r/CFandPC_TOTHEMAX
Some effective marketing if you needed a chuckle
Some effective marketing if you needed a chuckle
Only two of a species is not enough to restore a population, the genetic diversity is just not there, even if they manage to reproduce their offsprings and their offsprings would be riddled with genetic abnormalities, birth defects, cancer and infertility
I'd say tape over the pussy and do anal, more fun and less risk
A pregnancy and following child birth in a world with no medical system is almost a death sentence
Beastiality would be another safe choice
[ Removed by Reddit ][ Removed by reddit on account of violating the [content policy](/help/contentpolicy). ]
A Guide to AntiNatalismThis is a simple, and intended to be brief, guide to AntiNatalism (the subreddit, and the philosphy). I'll answer some common questions, both to divert interactions with suspected trolls and to helpgenuine newcomers to this sub/philosophy (or those just curious).
This post is not intended to overshadow other FAQs posted, it is to provide a very condensed and simply-worded version of the FAQ in a fresh manner, and address some common questions not covered in the original post.
For the original r/Antinatalist FAQ, go to [https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/wiki/beginnersguide/](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/wiki/beginnersguide/)
# What is AntiNatalism?
This subreddit describes it best: "The philosophical belief that having children is morally wrong and cannot be justified."
**Vocabulary: Natalism-** Natalism is the belief that childbearing is good or morally just. "Anti" natalism is the opposite. Another term used on this subreddit for natalists are "breeders," but that carries a heavily derogatory tone.
# So... You Just Hate Kids?
Nope. Or at least, not all of us.
Generally, we believe in limiting suffering as much as we can. All humans suffer at some point in their lives.
More specifically, many of us love children and are sympathetic of their position: born when they never asked to be. Forced to be alive for no good reason other than the assumed\* selfishness of their parents.
Some of us do dislike children, yes, but that is more like a preference or personality trait separate from Anti-Natalism than a part of the philosophy itself.
In essence, our qualm is with babies that could exist and trying to spread the word that they shouldn't rather than with the individual children themselves that already exist.
\**Some in* t*his subreddit might disagree, but maybe not all birth parents are selfish. Some don't know any better, have no access to healthcare/sex education, or other reasons. We have several AN who are parents that discovered that this philosophy is right for them after having kids. However, there are too many people that believe birth and babies are an overall net positive and something to be celebrated.*
# If People are "Forced to be Alive", what about Animals?
While you can (debatably, from what I've seen, but I'm not here to put the argument to rest) be AN and not vegan, many of us are vegan to prevent suffering, extra animals being birthed to keep up with demand, and other reasons.
They also, in an ideal world, prevent their pets from mating and giving birth, and only adopt existing animals without homes rather than buying from a breeder. So, in the ways we have direct control over, animals are included.
So, veganism (and the adopt-don't-shop mantra) goes hand-in-hand with AN.
# Why Don't You Just Kill Yourselves!?
Good question! And one I ask myself every day!
Jokes aside, I did wonder this when first wandering this subreddit. But it turns out, some people like being alive! Even if they're Anti-Natalists.
Sure, they've had their hardships, but these people are just built different. They love life! But... that doesn't mean that their kids would.
There are other reasons, too. One of them is religion (which I don't feel qualified to talk about, so moving on...) as well as circling back to the "limiting suffering" part. When people die, there is the suffering of the people still left alive that have to cope with that death.
# Are You Just Mad At Your Parents?
Well, for some of us, yes!
Many of us were born into circumstances we shouldn't have been! Poverty, unstable parental relationships, undereducated parents, and other situations.
What many don't seem to comprehend is that when you bring a baby into this world, it doesn't stay a cute crib-dweller for long. That baby is going to be a person with feelings and complex needs. It's not a relationship fixer, a tax write-off, or anything else besides a *person.*
**However,** not all of us "hate our parents". Some of us had great childhoods, and like our lives and family! But we understand not everyone born will be that fortunate, even if we end up being good at parenting.
We believe the best kind of parent is one who adopts, or resists their desire to bring a baby unnecessarily into this world and loves their hypothetical children enough to put their lack of suffering before their own wishes or aspirations.
​
# Conclusion
This information was gathered using this subreddit and other online resources. I'm not affiliated with any official AN group, or this sub besides just being a member.
However, I hope I made a few things clear. I will be adding to this when I see more questions come up. Suggestions are welcome, but I will only be covering the answers to questions that I can be certain of.
Yeah, but your tax dollars already go to other dumb things (excessively bloated salaries for politicians, for example, but other things, too.)
Tbh, I'd rather "my tax dollars" to go back to the people that need it. We can't control the fact that those children are already here. It's too late for antinatalism at that point, or health care or sex education. Life sucks, we're all forced to be here, so why not make it a little easier for some people?
And sure, maybe more people would have kids just to get paid for it, but people that ignorant would probably have kids for some other reason anyway.
alright i get it now
You really aren't great here if you don't see how most of pro birthing is grounded in sexism and male patriarchy and how you honestly refuse to see how others could interpret this as sexist and implying women are mere baby carriers, just bc you don't interpret that from this.
My god you're so dense. Go away already
I'm saying that's what this implied and that's how I'M seeing this picture. And there are others who feel similarly.
How ppl interpret art is subjective. Your opinion and interpretation is not fact.
Get off your high horse already and get off my post
See, thinking that the meaning of that picture is "only men have a brain" only shows that you're lacking one.
And not really, I'm great here :)
The dense one here is you, but ignorance is bliss I suppose
You really lack reading skills. That's what I said, there is the notion of reproduction in the picture, but nothing related to AN except for that.
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