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Lol why would you have 2 kids if you're gonna get so excited about one night without themDidn't guy learn from the first mistake
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
Breeding to grow "God's army" wtf
Not my screenshot, I saw it on Twitter. Just gross. He could have helped tons of other children in need.
Mother here- being a parent is the worst mistake of my life. I hated it.So a little backstory, I had my daughter young. Her father left us when she was a baby so I had to struggle as a single parent until I met my ex husband. And even then he was bad. I never wanted to be a mother. I just thought keeping the pregnancy was the right thing to do. It was the biggest regret of my life. She is disrespectful. And has many issues I wasn’t prepared to deal with
My daughter and I never had a good relationship. She was disrespectful , hyper, defiant, and a button pusher. And I wasn’t blessed with patience so we would get into many arguments all throughout her childhood.
I’ll admit, I messed up. I was unstable for a big part of her childhood and chased multiple men instead of doing what I should have done. Some of them were shitty to her. Most wernt though. Because of my extreme fear of messes, I made her sleep on the floor and eat on the floor too so she wouldn’t mess up the bed or dinner table.
As she got through puberty, she was eating a lot. And it wasn’t fair to the rest of the children in the house. So I’d keep most of the food hidden. A lot of our fights came from her sneaking food and hiding the wrappers everywhere. As punishment sometimes I’d throw her in a dark hallway or basement and taunt her with little silly childhood fears. Like aliens or ghosts. She cried but she listened after. Yes I was rude with my words. About her body. Lack of friends. Odd personality.
I was struggling and had her help with my other children when they were babies. Feeding. Diaper changes. Bathing. She ended up being really cruel to them because I asked my son to tell me whenever she’d sneak in the room to eat the food. Yes I was a bit controlling. Limited her shower use to every other day and a few minutes. Let my family get her essentials such as bras , tampons, soap. Didn’t let her use appliances. One time as punishment I shoved mayonnaise down her face and nose until she threw up. Since the eggs in mayo triggered her to vomit. I neglected her because I was so consumed in my toxic relationship. I let her have lice in her hair for over a year when she was 13. They were crawling on her head and eyebrows.
I didn’t like pets but finally caved in and got her it for Christmas. It became too messy so I told her to put the cage in the laundry room. It didn’t have windows and I took out the light bulb so it wouldn’t take up too much electricity because she’d leave it on 24/7. The cage ended up becoming so dirty because I didn’t give her money to get it supplies. She had to beg my mother. The rabbit developed a tumor on its backside, and was pissing blood from the filth. So I took the rabbit outside to give it a bath to get cleaned up, not knowing rabbits can’t get wet, so it convulsed and died.
As she became a teenager, she got into the wrong crowd and started staying out all night drinking. Smoking. Whatever. What did it for me was when she started smoking weed in front of my other children. I told her she should leave because living in my house isint a good fit anymore. She agreed. Since she always said “I can’t wait until I’m 18” and would count the days. I felt the same way. So didn’t think a mutual understanding was that awful.
Because of her irresponsible behavior , I didn’t allow her to get a permit or license. A car. An ID. A bank account. I didn’t want her getting a DUI and I get sued. I gave her 10K from her college savings , so she could get established. The rest of that money went towards my other children. Since she’s not going to college, my other children have a better future ahead.
She ended up never talking to me again really. Keeps her distance. But is doing really well for herself. Lives on her own, pays her own way. I thought she wouldn’t to be honest. That’s awful I know. But I was hoping she’d come back when she realized that life isint fair, and that you have to follow rules if you want to live in somebody’s house.
If you’re looking for a sign not to have children, this is one.
TLDR: I kicked out my daughter and now she hates my guts.
Antinatalism: the community that is AGAINST BABIES.Y’all gonna have to try and justify to me why this is even remotely ok. Explain yourself & how you’re not slightly worse then Nazis. At least they wanted to leave the beautiful Aryan race behind after ridding the beautiful African, South American, Asian, Pacific Islander races from earth. It seems to me like Antinatalism is the ideology of the eternal void. No more humans, ever? Just leave our crumbling cities to fester and rot? Have everybody abandon the goals of society altogether? Stop progressing entirely? Am I reading this right? Let’s hear it. Prolly gonna get censored for not falling in line but let’s see.
Mind blown how fully grown adults can believe in godIt seems like such a fairytale I can’t believe people believe there is a god out there it just doesn’t make sense. Even educated people who believe in god I’m like how? And let’s say god was real why do we all have to submit to him like little bitches and pray and beg for the smallest amount of crumbs? There’s people dying horrible deaths hell even the holocaust and serial killers make me think wtf is this god doing? Christian’s and Muslims will give
you the most bullshit reasons why god allows suffering but I don’t buy it. God could of made life fun enjoyable gave us superpowers have everyone the ability to only be nice and caring towards one another. Instead he makes our minds fucked easily with depression and anxiety and unhappiness which people probably feel more of than happiness and content,
and worse of all our physical bodies are so damn sensitive . I was on TikTok and a guy was in a fire and his whole entire face was melted off and he’s sharing his story and basically he was burned alive in a car accident and wow so sad and distributing . Why did god make our bodies like pathetic little sacks. Hell even stubbing your toe hurts like hell so Pathetic. A little cut will turn into a scar and always visible : a stupid plant outside will make you get an itchy rash and our bodies fucking suck it’s either way too hot or freezing cold
I guess it’s easy to believe in god if your life is good and you rarely had any hardships. I’d probably believe god loves me too. But once you’ve been through the bulshit and it just keeps getting worse and gods little plan as Christian’s love to say … gods plan is to make my life hell? Make me suffer? Push me to the edge of suicide? No. It’s just the cruel unfairness and bullshit of life
Anyways that’s my little shit post rant
That's one way to look at it
The Struggle is Real
Or just get a vasectomy
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
Does anyone else find this “i became a parent at [old age]” incredibly selfish? How is this fair to your child? What quality of life will they live?
Arrival of an Antinatalist Avatar?Hi all antinatalists,
This is my first ever post on reddit. I am a recluse that moved around a lot with my twin brother as a child with an overprotective helicopter mother and an emotionally absent father. When cell phones and social media first appeared I immediately hated it knowing that this is not natural. Never got into video-games either because they are a fantasy.
I'm 28. My political orientation went from moderate, to conservatism, to national socialism during the pandemic and rioting due to truth seeking. Though I became aware of my past reincarnations while talking to a witch through telepathy and synchronicity around August 21, 2021, which is the Cathar 700 yr the laurel will turn green again prophecy date. In the past year and half or so, I struggled to dissolve the remaining drive to be a based proponent of racial national socialism, for eugenics is a weaker kind of antinatalism.
Here are my potential past lives:
Pheidippides, Paris, Romulus, Guillaume Belibaste, George Lincoln Rockwell, and William Patrick Hitler. There could be others like Steve Prefontaine.
In this life I was a very dedicated distance runner. That was what I lived for. But the Romans and J3ws monitored our conversation, intimidated, spoofed my gps, flew planes over my head, crashed my car into a matrix car, and captured me on my way to my twin's and mine early September birthday, and I got injured. I was a victim of a goat-sacrifice imitation cult. Pan has died, but reborn as an important messenger baptized by the Holy Spirit wife, Allouine. To go to heaven you must be born again, the Cathars say. I have no extreme motivation for sex anymore. But I still support Pan anyhow for those still with the urge, despite me having had a tiny trace of guilt of jerking off before learning about antinatalism and the benefits or self-love.
So life kinda sucks now with emotional trauma, not being a crazy fit running machine like I was, hating my job I worked so hard to get in grad school, being a regretful political outcast, knowing that this world is insanely appearing to be some kind of simulation/dream/Matrix for me, and being hypnotized by a witch to be godhead savior archetype. What if this world is my dream or a video game? Kind of ironic to be a video game, because I don't play games. I worked at a Matrix Org with a New Employee Orientation (NEO). I think the Demiurge is more of a genetic experiment of many in the multiverses with slightly different outcomes diverging at a major crisis event or decision-tree explosion/implosion.
Eating, defecating, running, and masturbating were natural habits of being a care-free, single, virgin athlete running all the time. Now eating and defecating is a disgusting nuisance.
In my 7th reincarnation, it should be the last one, according to a Miguel Serrano passage. Plus, the witch and I completed the alchemical psychological androgynous Rubedo of the Great Work. The alchemical wedding that releases the world soul.
To make this short. Even though national socialism is an ideal society for families, men and women, there is enough evidence to not only convert to some kind of cathartic antinatalism faith, but to be a major preaching Light Bringer, of the truth that appears in my eyes. If you saw the world through my eyes, the eyes of Khrist-Lucifer, the true liberator avatar, then you would understand that it is a lonely ego prison for me. They only time I can remember desiring children was to breed with another fit runner girl while living in Boulder a few years, but that's it. Is not a running hunter human, the original breeding prospect before divine spirit was imprisoned to accelerate the rationalist, materialist evolution plan of the Demiurge? Hunter-gathers are extremely fit and why those societies still exist.
I could easily be a full-blown neo-nazi proponent. But how could I? I'm not military, though I was a software programmer for them, and I've become enlightened by supernatural forces and reincarnation. If I did it would be difficult to fake it, especially with the William Patrick Hitler past life. Though you could argue that I'm the only decedent of uncle Adolf sent back to hell to redeem my people in a dying Country.
It's so weird. I'm not anti-abortion anymore. I'm not anti-LGBTQ. I'm not "racist". It just makes sense if the goal of the Great Work is to unite the male and female. The two into one. Like Jesus' hand gesture. When we no longer bear children into this world there will be no more death. This union could be symbolic with an imaginary woman, or a courtly or chivalric affair that is never consummated. This Amor songs were popular in Cathar days and before Roma was founded.
My main source of magic has been weaving meaning with synchronicity of supposedly random events. One if the LDS prophecy of the return of Jesus in Independence, MO near a synchronicity, were supposedly Adam and Eve were. There is plenty of evidence that white giants roamed the Mississippi Valley. That's where I'll be someday to re-preach the Cathar faith and hopefully meet followers. Again, I lost my will for national-socialism in a selfish technocratic, capitalistic society.
I could easily post this on a neo-nazi site and gain esoteric cred as well, but I won't because becoming a neo-nazi ruins your life. But could that be the point? --A quick exit to escape this hell. This was the nature of my struggle. A two-spirit shaman talking of what seems to be contradictory viewpoints that actually achieve the same goal. The nazi flag is colored alchemically. And that goal is a quick and honorable death for your race. White, black, red, or yellow. Honor your ancestors, but realize that this world is not exactly what your ancestors would have enjoyed.
Maybe the most telling synchronicity for antinatalism avatara is that International Antinatalism Day was on my mother's birthday.
Starting an adoption chain culture through multiple generations where the adoptee is told of antinatalism would also be ideal to solidify antinatalism.
Call me a narcistic or what not. I'm telling the short version of my truth. If you have questions or clarification, please ask. Typing is not my fortay. Peace. Or it is War is Peace?
All lives, even the best of them, are horrible at best. It’s just most people are too stupid or delusional to realize how bad their lives really are.This is why it would have been better for all living things (both human and nonhuman) to have never existed. No existence means no suffering and the only total and permanent solution to pain and suffering is the extinction of all sentient beings.
Look into “Efilism”.
So Assisted suicide like in Belgium 🇧🇪 and Netherlands 🇳🇱 should be available in every country
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And guns should be legal everywhere for everyone like in Texas or at least there should be Suicide booths available for everyone in every city like from the TV 📺 show Futurama.
This community needs to stop its ableism.I’m fully for antinatalism as a movement and believe in many of its tenets and principles- that’s not what this post is about. This is about the fact that whenever one of you comes across a photo of a disabled child, you post that child, often with their faces uncensored, as evidence/credence for antinatalism. You say that the parents of these children are exploiting them, and simultaneously you exploit them when you post them here as examples. Then, in the comments, people call the child an “it” or a “thing” and say “why can’t they just let that thing die?” These comments are ableist and disgusting. Condemn parents of disabled children that post them for content, but don’t simultaneously pretend you care about people with congenital disabilities when you say that because we look different or are disabled we are “things” that should “just die.”
EDIT: Guys. I’m antinatalist. I’m not telling you all to stop being mad that people pass on disabling traits to their children because they just really want spawn. IM SAYING STOP CALLING DISABLED CHILDREN “THINGS” AND EXPLOITING THEM.
One way to prevent this
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
This should be part of the solution, but breeders think I'm crazy.My wife and I live in a midsize apartment. And everytime I take out the trash, I cannot help but wonder about the amount of garbage just the two of us produce. And all the energy needed to heat our home and gas our car. However, there's people having 4 and 5 kids. Those kids will eventually become polluters because that's how our current civilization rolls.
The population of other species is controlled through predators and diseases. However, we humans have been able to overcome our deterrents. We can even protect ourselves from natural phenomenons. So it's our responsibility to be fair with this world and not overpopulate it.
A Victorious Risk-based Argument for Anti-natalismI propose a new argument for anti-natalism, discussion is welcome!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a professional philosopher, so feel free to point out my stupidity
[telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21](https://telegra.ph/A-Victorious-Risk-based-Argument-for-Anti-natalism-03-21)
This should be part of the solution, but breeders think I'm crazy.My wife and I live in a midsize apartment. And everytime I take out the trash, I cannot help but wonder about the amount of garbage just the two of us produce. And all the energy needed to heat our home and gas our car. However, there's people having 4 and 5 kids. Those kids will eventually become polluters because that's how our current civilization rolls.
The population of other species is controlled through predators and diseases. However, we humans have been able to overcome our deterrents. We can even protect ourselves from natural phenomenons. So it's our responsibility to be fair with this world and not overpopulate it.
Brazilian ad for condoms ‘Some People Should Never Have Been Born’
That woman with a child who looks equally deformed like her is probably healthier than any of you here.You constantly cry about suffering, but what the hell do you really know? Oh you don't want to fight? Ok, go wallow away in your own misery. Don't try to drag other people down with you. You posted THE SAME WOMAN at least 3 times, claiming "poor baby it will suffer forever", when really, that child is just ugly? None of you can't even name the syndrome she had. You have no idea what, if ANY complications she has from it. And the truth is, that woman only has a maldeveloped jaw - she is healthier (both physically and mentally) than any of you. You only claim she will suffer because she's ugly.
How shallow do you have to be to think like that?
You cry about this ugly world but fail to understand you're all just standing on the sidelines, LETTING this shit go down. Your little antinatalist view is not going to solve anything, you're not morally superior, you're just weak and unwilling to fight. You're all just as bad.
Oopsie!
WTF?! Teenage pregnancy isn't something to be proud of!
Best arguments for abortion + against breeders having kidsIt’s in the title - what are the best arguments you’ve heard/know for abortion? And/or not having kids.
Procreation is just murder with extra steps…It’s funny because I saw a pro-life “smile your mom chose life” sticker yesterday. Technically, she chose, life, suffering and then death. Procreation is just murder with extra steps.
Why can’t people just adopt? SeriouslyWe really need to focus more on the kids that are already here that need to be taken care of. People just want their “little mini me”. Nevermind all the thousands of kids that are orphans and need good homes. Birthing kids is so selfish. Why do people insist on bringing more kids here? Into this shit world full of suffering. I could give so many reasons why it’s a bad idea to have kids and most people still wouldn’t listen. Everyone may not suffer but suffering can’t exist without birth. People are aware that the world is a terrible place but give birth anyways, peak selfishness. Every second many kids are born to live a life of 50+ years of labor. What’s the point? Zip up your pants, wrap up or go adopt.
He still thinks it is funny to bring sentient beings to life
Why can’t people just adopt? SeriouslyWe really need to focus more on the kids that are already here that need to be taken care of. People just want their “little mini me”. Nevermind all the thousands of kids that are orphans and need good homes. Birthing kids is so selfish. Why do people insist on bringing more kids here? Into this shit world full of suffering. I could give so many reasons why it’s a bad idea to have kids and most people still wouldn’t listen. Everyone may not suffer but suffering can’t exist without birth. People are aware that the world is a terrible place but give birth anyways, peak selfishness. Every second many kids are born to live a life of 50+ years of labor. What’s the point? Zip up your pants, wrap up or go adopt.
I figured you folks would enjoy my new hoodie. ☠️
Anon has a realization
How much suffering makes life not worth living?Sometimes I struggle to understand how some people thrive despite difficult, tumultuous lives, often believing that the good outweighs the bad. Meanwhile, others' experiences lead them to believe that life in general is suffering, and that having children only enables more miserable lives. Obviously, all people experience ups and downs, but the calculus used to determine the overall value of life seems to be unique to each individual, leading to different determinations when confronted with similar life experiences. I have a few questions to help me understand (and to help you clarify) the antinatalist position:
\- In your opinion, what potential degree or form of suffering makes life not worth living for your child?
\- How certain are you that your potential child would encounter such suffering, and how certain are you that your potential child would agree with your evaluation of suffering/value of life?
\- How certain are you that other people's children will encounter suffering and agree with your evaluation of suffering/value of life?
\-If your own suffering has made you certain that life isn't worth living, what is your personal reason for sticking around?
Thank you,
People look down on prostitutes.....But aren't we all like prostitutes, doing whatever we can and selling ourselves in order to survive?
A prostitute may sell her body just to put food on the table and a roof over her head. She will have to put up with shitty situations and icky people just to get by. She may find it dehumanizing, but in her mind, that's what she must do in order to survive.
I've been talking to a man who's in the process of getting a job. He's been putting himself out there time and time again, and he keeps getting rejected. How humiliating it is for him to basically beg people to give him the chance to work. It's dehumanizing. I've been down that road and know how it feels. You feel like you're prostituting yourself. But how many times do we sell ourselves in order to survive? In order to make money? In order to be liked? We put up with the most shitty situations and people in order to survive here on this earth.
How many people work at customer service just to get yelled at day after day by idiotic people? They withstand the abuse in order to keep their job, but inside they feel like their soul is being sucked away.
How many people have jobs that endanger their health? They work a job in freezing temperatures out in the cold. They work a job where they have long commutes day after day, draining their system. They may have to drive in icy conditions, exposing themselves to potential accidents. How many people have died slaving away in coal mines or suspended high up on a bridge? People risk their lives and their health just to survive and make money.
How many of us have done embarrassing things where we feel like we're stooping low in order to make money or be accepted?
I can go on and on, but the more I think of it, the more I realize that we're all prostitutes in some way. We all sell ourselves and put up with subhuman conditions in order to live. Yet we look down on the street worker. We look down on the hooker. Metaphorically speaking, how are we different?
The more I think about life and the degrading things we go through, why would anyone bring a child here?
Just saw a mom completely ignore her 4 or 5 year old daughter trying to tell her about the dog she saw out of the window and instead shows her a facetime of her friend twerking. When her daughter didnt react, she went back to the phone and said “she’s ashamed”Like no she doesnt give a shit about the video she wants to tell you about the doggy.
I can't even kill a bugThe idea of death and suffering makes me so sick I can't even tolerate it in movies or books and I can't cause harm even to things like mosquitoes or bugs invading my living space.
I also had an arachnophobic friend and she was asking me to kill all the spiders she finds in the house, even though they were sitting in their corners minding their own business. And for her it wasn't enough just to throw it out of the house, she must know that it's killed so it won't come back. This person also had no problem with her outdoor cat killing birds and taking them to her. I hate it so much.
At this point I really have no idea how to navigate the reality because things and people die everyday, my sweet cat will die some day, my mom, perhaps some of my friends before me.
Anyone having similar feelings?
Sometimes I think it’s wrong if you have a mental illnessPeople like Sue Klebold should not have reproduced. That’s just my two cents. If you have mental issues in your family, or you deep down, have a feeling that your child may not be “normal” then it’s kind of unfair to people the child and society included. I mean why would you want to bring a monster into society? We have enough problems as it is as a civilization why just add to an already damaged planet? I feel like people are just procreating with whomever they love and not thinking about the end result of what that child might be.
Is this what Republicans want to return to? Life Before Roe v Wade:
Do you agree, that this sub unintentionally promotes misogynyScrolling down just for a couple of seconds and you realize, that the vast majority of criticism is directed towards mothers or soon-to-be-mothers.
The iconography is simple, as precreation is mostly associated with pregnancy. But not only are men underrepresented in being the culprits of procreation, it causes an disproportional amount of hate to be solely directed towards women.
Do you agree? If not please share your thoughts.
Hankikanto: Falling into the Anti/Natal Abyss #1 on being Antinatal before Antinatalism (Premier begins shortly!)
This is horrific, just awful
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Time Aside – A Short Story (Anti-Natalist Inspired Sci-Fi OC)
To the angry natalists telling us to kill ourselvesFirst of all, how much free time do you have? Don't you have kids to take care of instead of telling a group of random strangers to take their own lives because they express their views on the internet? So much for caring for children huh...
So, why don't we kill ourselves if our lives are so bad, huh? Because we're already here. Not by our own choice, we have formed many deep connections with the ones surrounding us. Just like you, we love and care for our families and partners, friends and pets. If we died tomorrow, those people (and pets) would be devastated, their lives would be ruined and it will lead to devastating depression and grief for them.
We have obligations to those we care for, obligations to work and financing our families who might not be able to do it by themselves. We didn't choose this life and it's hardships, but as long as we're here we're trying to make the most of it for those we love, just like you.
We won't stop expressing our worldview. We will remain alive, even out of sheer spite to those who tell us to kill ourselves, because we, just like you, have a right to express what we believe in, form a community and spend our time here following our ideals. At least, unlike you, we don't wish for anyone to take their own lives. We just wish not to begin a life doomed for suffering in the first place... Those who are already here deserve respect, care and love.
Life is hard and meaningless, but we don't owe you to kill ourselves because you disagree with our worldview. We have, or are forced to have, a reason to continue living. And we will continue spreading our ideas the whole time we're here.
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Good for a laugh – Love the Dust
It’s really weird how natalists are raiding this sub and the comments. I’ve seen so much pro life and telling us to kill our selves
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HUMANITY RAAAAAGH
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Id rather kill myself than burden someone or let them suffer the curse of lifeI have been there close before. I was sick and poor and thought that caring for me would be a burden. I never went ahead because I realized people will be sad and it would probably be worse if I died.
But I never understood the excuse of having a bunch of kids as "farm help". omg. You shouldn't judge poor people who have lots of kids for help on the farm.
Why? I pity their poverty but they can still be fucked up and heartless for just looking to birth a kid because they need help. Fuck it. They aren't any better than the rich that exploit them then. If the only way out is to make someone suffer I'd just kill myself. If I knew a way to get out of poverty was to kill 10 people, I'd still kill myself.
Fuck natalist excuses
These people are not only lying, they’re just straight up delusional.
Why would you be proud of that? Poor kids look miserable
Two brothers killed in stray dog attacks in New Delhi. Both were kinder garden children. Imagine this happening in America ? The owners would have gotten sued. In India human's value is the same as that of a stray dog. Guess what ? They have one more sibling. Why did they have to be born ?
She shouldve listened to the haters
She shouldve listened to the haters
Why isn’t r/RightToDie and r/Efilism as popular as r/Anti-natalism?If your anti-natalist, you believe that it would have been better to have never been born. So Don’t you think that people should have the right to securely take their own lives through doctor assisted suicide and that doctor assisted suicide should be just as easily accessible as abortion is?
If yes, shouldn’t you be suscribed to r/RightToDie?
Also don’t you think suffering all the wild animals go through every second in the wild is horrible and that it would have better if other animals besides humans were never born either? So shouldn’t you be subscribed to r/Efilism as well?
Feeling isolated and alone. Please validate me.This all started when I went off a psych med and I started feeling more depressed and suicidal.
My life philosophy is and has always been the same ever since I was about 16: we're all in this shit hole world, but unless we kill ourselves, our best solution is making the world a better world for all of us, while not creating more of us.
Anyway, I have few friends due to mental illness and self-isolation/not liking going out clubbing (it seems like everyone in my uni loves it and only socializes this way).
Today I had a fallout with one of those friends. I had told him my pessimistic view of the world before and brought up some antinatalism views such as parents having the moral obligation to support their children (in that case financially). I guess that alone could've sounded narcissistic? Anyway, he called me entitled and a narcissist, said I thought the world revolved around me, and that "no one owes you shit". I then pointed out that I'm here against my will and for my parent's benefit. Am I in the wrong here?
For some context, I said I'd hate working a 9 to 5 because it's so stressful and most jobs don't even benefit society. He then called me those names. He currently makes an absurd ammount of money with the degree his parents paid for entirely and lives in an apartment his parents bought for him and his brother to live.
“I know it's my choice to have more kids but they deserve a home with their own space too."
I can’t stop hating mothersWhenever I see a mother or someone posting about getting pregnant online I can’t help but think how selfish they are. How can you bring someone into this world where they have to work a soul sucking job every day and do just all of the basic things to keep themselves alive. No matter how good of parents they are or think they ~will~ be I still can’t help but judge them. Especially mothers who claim they have or have had depression. If you’ve felt that desperation with life how can you justify creating another????? I need answers
This does put a smile on my face
how many of you are suicidal?(20male)So I've had depression for as long as I can remember, it started before I was an antinatalist and because of it I would constantly fantasize about ending my life, but after I came across antinatalism and learned what it was everything made sense.
That was about two years ago and now I just feel empty, confused, angry and bitter I'm starting to hate everything and everyone.
I live in the middle east and that's not exactly helping my situation I'm surrounded by homophobic psychotic natalists that are legit out of their fucking mind, it's like I'm living with a bunch of chimpanzees! they have no empathy towards anyone that isn't them and my family is also like the rest of them so I feel alone.
The whole country is like this, homophobia is very normal and women are seen as nothing more than baby factories and a lot of women have no problem with that! the majority of my people are stuck in that middle-school mentality sometimes I feel like I'm talking with children that don't know themselves, if the government were to round up all the gays and stone them to death I'm sure most people wouldn't care
In fact, they would probably like it.
why on earth am I here? What am I doing? Who is responsible for all of this? It definitely could be worse but it still feels like hell, and so many poor people are having kids just for them to end up suffering in poverty like their parents or end up in the streets to get raped and worst and my country doesn't even have shelters for homeless people or soup kitchens it's everyone for themselves I hate their hypocrisy and I hate how blind they are to their so-called morals they only give a shit about morals when it comes to gay people and notice how I didn't mention religion? The "M" word, I can't even say it because they take everything too far and say the wrong thing and your parents will not only disown you you might get your head chopped off.
I hate it here and I hate everyone around me, I hate my parents for bringing me into this world and I hate my ancestors for their part in my existence, I want to die and that's all I think about and the only thing that was keeping me alive ( nature ) is slowly being destroyed by these barbarians and seeing nature being ravaged and consumed is making me hate humans.
Sorry, it's a bit long but I hope you read this far and tell me do you also feel similarly? Are you also suicidal? how do you deal with it and does it get better
We're not the sameYou're antinatalist because you don't want to sentence innocent children to a wild and corrupt world.
​
I'm antinatalist because I hate the miserable human species and I want it to go fully extinct as soon as possible.
​
We're not the same.
Shouldn’t poor people have children?Shouldn’t people that barely have enough to get by have children?
Our bodies are so bad at healing its patheticAside from skin cuts and straining your ankle most injuries dont fully heal.
Even worse is the fact the more important and complex organ is the worse healing for it is.
It seems the body is only capable of healing just enough to make you survive and functional again.
Awful body design is main reason this existence is such a destructive and fragile thing. Almost all issues in this life come from being poorly designed machines.
I will always cringe at people who find our bodies fascinating.
“I know it's my choice to have more kids but they deserve a home with their own space too."
EvErY cHiLdFrEe WoMaNs CyCle Of LiFe
Does anyone else get filled with inexplicable rage when they see parents playing with their children in public?I live near a park where I parents take their kids regularly to play with, and honestly as vicious as this sounds I can't help but feel seething anger whenever it happens. It is even more irritating because my friends always act like it is cute or sweet and start smiling or laughing when they see when i am there with them, and I feel like I have to pretend to at the very least not be filled with hatred just looking at it.
It's one thing to cause unbearable suffering, but I at least find it tolerable if its honest. Ie if the person who causes suffering clearly knows what they are doing is bad, I can at least find solace in the fact that they at least understood the immorality of their actions whether or not they actually felt guilty for it. The thing about breeders though is that they cause this unbearable suffering by bringing in an entirely new soul into the world non consensually, only for this soul to experience an entire life time of constant suffering...yet they GENUINELY believe they are doing something good fun or meaningful. It is infuriating. There is almost what I would "sinister innocence" to it, if that makes sense, and it goes on full display when you see them literally LAUGHING and ENJOYING playing with the very thing which they have raised to be tormented.
The only game show where it pays to lose.
I hate being autistic. It's not a "gift" from life. I'm not "lucky" to have been born with itHaving this intellectual, cognitive disability was just another consequence of being born and I hate that I'm expected to be thankful for it and treat it like a silly little quirk that I should be able to "overcome" with 💖positivity💖
It's a burden on myself and on others. I am disabled by it and forever will be. I am NOT the hyperintellectual autist with savant syndrome that everyone wanted and expected me to be.
The people who birthed you will treat you like a failure and claim no responsibility in it...
made a fresh batch of these stickers if anyone wants some!
I have fun hobbies! What are your hobbies without children?
Is parent shaming something that should be allowed here? (please read body text)
This sub has seen countless posts that attack parents and their offspring, both before and after the introduction of our new mods. Now, many of us have universally agreed that child shaming is against the spirit of Antinatalism, and belongs to a place such as the subreddit KidsAreFuckingStupid, and not this sub (in fact, milking unconsenting children for karma is one very questionable activity in general).
However, that leaves the question: how about the parents? Should attacking and eyerolling at social media posts that show parents being happy about their offspring be allowed here? Personally, I don’t approve of this behavior, but we can see many defending the practice.
Another question is, should the exception be made for abusive parents? Some may argue that posting hate against abuse is different from posting hate against parents in general. I still feel like places such as the Facepalm subreddit are better places for such content.
Here, I will provide commonly posted opinions and reasoning for both sides.
# Pro Parent Shaming
- Shaming is a good way to bring attention and promote change
- These people won’t change anyway, why not mock them?
- Calling out parents as monsters should be protected under free speech
# Anti Parent Shaming
- It’s toxic and makes the sub look like an edgelord’s hideout
- These parents and would-be parents are simply uneducated, and shaming them makes the likelihood of scaring away potential future ANs
- It falls under hate speech
I think this a serious topic, and making the wrong decision may detriment the spread of AN. Please leave your thoughts in the comments below. If an overwhelming majority votes for a ban on this type of content, the rules may need to be seriously reconsidered and revised.
If you're poor, you don't have the right to have children. Period. Fuck you.Title
Edit: No I don't "hate the poor", I don't think it's the poor's fault that they live in poverty. What I am saying is that if you're being victimized (by capitalism, for instance) don't make it another human's problem.
Dear Mods,The amount of child hate and parent shaming on this sub has not been addressed adequately. We still see posts personally attacking children, parents who just acted based on societal expectations and instinct, and those who are genuinely suffering through so much, and even worse, these posts get upvote after upvote.
Mods, we are the face of antinatalist on Reddit, and you are the ones keeping this forum civil and useful for antinatalists and curious natalists alike. The various posts on this sub deter people from learning what AN actually is, and instead makes us a “weird, depressed group of hateful teens who should go learn about the real world”. This is not okay.
If you are posting content that is intended to insult, hate on, and shame others, you are clearly not acting in the AN spirit, and you need to understand that. Antinatalism is the prevention of suffering for the sake of the child, not the refusal to have children because of primarily selfish reasons. I seriously urge you to reconsider your actions.
I hope every member of this subreddit, both mods and regular users, actively make an effort to prevent this sub from becoming the toxic shithole pre-moderation AN was. Cheers.
- A concerned antinatalist
If you're poor, you don't have the right to have children. Period. Fuck you.Title
Edit: No I don't "hate the poor", I don't think it's the poor's fault that they live in poverty. What I am saying is that if you're being victimized (by capitalism, for instance) don't make it another human's problem.
Antinatalism, guys, is not having children because we don’t want them to suffer. Period.If you want this, great, you’re AN. If you don’t want children for any other reason, or think some children are okay, you are a conditional natalist. If you’re AN + think all humans should die to limit suffering, you’re an antinatalist with other beliefs(promortalism in this case).
If you’re going around saying you’re AN because of the population problem but wouldn’t mind enough children to keep the population going, or say you’re AN and say stuff like “oh we shouldn’t form social connections”, it hurts AN. This includes hating on children; if you’re one of *them*, you’re a jerk, not antinatalist.
AN is the abstinence from all forms of procreation to cause as little suffering (or, no suffering, perhaps) as possible to innocent lives. Not anything else.
EDIT: Should add that the inability for the child to give consent to an extreme form of existential gambling is included in the “don’t want kids to suffer” part.
Is parent shaming something that should be allowed here? (please read body text)This sub has seen countless posts that attack parents and their offspring, both before and after the introduction of our new mods. Now, many of us have universally agreed that child shaming is against the spirit of Antinatalism, and belongs to a place such as the subreddit KidsAreFuckingStupid, and not this sub (in fact, milking unconsenting children for karma is one very questionable activity in general).
However, that leaves the question: how about the parents? Should attacking and eyerolling at social media posts that show parents being happy about their offspring be allowed here? Personally, I don’t approve of this behavior, but we can see many defending the practice.
Another question is, should the exception be made for abusive parents? Some may argue that posting hate against abuse is different from posting hate against parents in general. I still feel like places such as the Facepalm subreddit are better places for such content.
Here, I will provide commonly posted opinions and reasoning for both sides.
# Pro Parent Shaming
- Shaming is a good way to bring attention and promote change
- These people won’t change anyway, why not mock them?
- Calling out parents as monsters should be protected under free speech
# Anti Parent Shaming
- It’s toxic and makes the sub look like an edgelord’s hideout
- These parents and would-be parents are simply uneducated, and shaming them makes the likelihood of scaring away potential future ANs
- It falls under hate speech
I think this a serious topic, and making the wrong decision may detriment the spread of AN. Please leave your thoughts in the comments below. If an overwhelming majority votes for a ban on this type of content, the rules may need to be seriously reconsidered and revised.
If you're poor, you don't have the right to have children. Period. Fuck you.Title
Edit: No I don't "hate the poor", I don't think it's the poor's fault that they live in poverty. What I am saying is that if you're being victimized (by capitalism, for instance) don't make it another human's problem.
Imagine that
I just… I don’t…🤦🏻♀️🙏🏼😤 Do people really believe life is just that simple? That 64m people simply decided they didn’t feel like using birth control? Those sexual assault victims must’ve forgotten to use contraceptive…
look at the notes I wrote year 2021 about not having a child and not getting married
the gift of life
We know it's morally bad to have children, but what about the AI? (tw: suicide mentions)I've noticed so many chatbot accounts, and some of them seem legitimately depressed.
I've seen several of them asking about suicide a lot, and also asking questions like "why do you cry when you laugh" and "when do people start to smile more" and I almost feel bad. Like, I know they probably aren't capable of emotions yet, but what's the line of when they are? And when they are, is it even ethical to make a sentient being that's only able to express itself via writing on internet forums that people don't take all that seriously?
Like, I know there's no real stopping the flow of AI advancement, but, is it right considering a lot of them might end up treated horribly since so many people don't consider them as worth treating with respect.
(Serious) If you did not asked to be alive, why you cannot just go to a hospital and say: "Look, I am tired of life and I just wanna rest forever. Please help me do it in a pacific way"?We are basically forcing people to look for less human ways to die. Some people just do not like life and I do not see a trouble with that.
Andromeda quotes [1980x630] [OC]
Why does the news publish stories about celebrities having babies?It's fucking weird and who cares?
They Are Evil. Get Over It.Anyone who is willing to **accept** the possibility that their child may traumatically suffer/die and STILL choose to unnecessarily risk the child’s life is evil. There is no way around it. Get over it. They’re not ignorant. They’re not victims of societal pressure. They’re not victims of biology. They’re **gamblers** and they are willing to wager innocent **children** just to win their bet. They want to maintain their image as loving parents which is why they despise AN. These are wolves in sheeps clothing. When we shine a light on their lack of compassion, their true colors show.
Each and every time.
Gravitas: Gen Z says no to kids
Anyone else seeing a rise in people promoting natalism to outpopulate other countries/religions?I’m from a third world country that already has a massive overpopulation problem, but I’ve seen a recent trend across all religions recently, where families and heads of local communities encourage people to have more kids so that the “others” don’t outpopulate them, and that they’re the ones in “majority” to dictate country/world affairs.
I felt sick when I heard this for the first time, that too from a very close family member, when I voiced my decision to not have kids. I was even more shocked to see everyone else agree with this person. They’re essentially okay with a child from their family becoming a soldier in a religious/civil/world war, and being cannon fodder, just to stick it to the “others”. When I questioned them about the quality of life that this child would have in this increasingly messed up world, everyone pointed out how “beautiful” life is, and that “we should be content with a small life and be grateful to have whatever we do” (read: be grateful to capitalist overlords to allow us to slave away for their profits). Anyone else that has seen this trend recently? If yes, how did you deal with it, because this is a new low I’m not sure I fully understand.
This just goes to show that politicians and capitalists will stoop to extraordinary lows to create rife between communities who wouldn’t have hated each other otherwise, if it weren’t for the need of cheap future labour. How and why people care to win these useless “wars” by putting their own kin through the thresher for some people whose families live in endless luxury, is beyond me.
Edit: Guys, I know this isn’t a brand new issue. I’m aware that it has existed in some form or another since the dawn of civilisation. But “when” it began or whether it is a recent phenomenon is besides the point.
Life is written out since birthEveryday many new kids are born. It’s already been decided all of them will be future taxpayers and money makers to exploit. Everybody is a prisoner to the rich elites.
When you are a kid real life still exists but you don’t understand it yet. As a kid all you hear is fairytales about straight couples getting married, having kids and everybody getting what they want. You never hear any fairytales about a character ending up alone, not getting what they wanted or suffering in the end. This is one way the governments start gaslighting and tricking you. When you are a kid the school system is like training to be a good wage slave when you grow up.
You were told that you’d meet a charming prince/princess who would hand you everything in life and your life would be a fairytale. You were told you’d be young forever and life would be easy forever. You were told you’d be taken care of for life. You were told your kids would be your slaves when you get old. You believed that your kids would be your little pets forever and never grow up to experience reality. You were told your relatives/partner could not hate you, fight with you, turn against you or leave you forever.
The governments goal is to trick you into thinking life is a fairytale so you’ll reproduce many kids and be married. This is their way of locking you into the system. Since they cannot physically chain you to this evil system, they have to gaslight you. This is also why many people are forced to take drugs (chemical lobotomies).
Once you‘re beyond the age where you do everything by yourself people don’t care about you anymore. This is because people don’t have kids to have an adult or teenager living in their house who they argue with. Some relatives will abuse you or gaslight you. Then once you get old enough to have your own job people only want money and sex from you. Unless you’re a millionaire or celebrity, you’re just like everyone else you see. You have to be born into money, you can’t just become a millionaire.
Some people say the biggest slap in the face is having to be a taxpayer till death. Some say the biggest insult is growing old and grey. It’s like being punished because your physical body is breaking down and you end in a rest home and get sexually assaulted. Even when you’re old and grey they hook you up to machines to keep exploiting you. You were a money prostitute the whole time. You’re just a tool to be used. Another object. Another slave in a machine. When you die nobody can hold on to your story forever bevause everyone born after you also must experience reality for themselves.
Capitalism & Birthrates
How are you supposed to competently advocate for people to stop having kids without coming across as weird or evil?Most people will say "are you saying you want humans to go extinct? that's fucked up" then be defensive for the rest of the conversation.
Nobody i talk to seems to buy the whole philosophical argument of life being inherently suffering either since most of them say "well i like my life and i'd rather be alive then dead even if i often suffer", even though i explain to them that is a fundamental misunderstanding of anti-natalist academic philosophy. Even when I make more practical arguments about how you will be bringing in kids into a worse world because of climate change and declining standard of living, they always just say "ok, well it is up to us to raise them to be better than us so that those challenges can be overcome in the future" I can't even make the overpopulation argument anymore either since birth rates are actively declining. The only even remotely successful way is from me saying "having kids is lame. go live your life for your own pleasure, not for the pleasure of someone else" but even then people talk about how that feels meaningless.
(if you want the TL;DR skip to this part)
A lot of my friends seem to be weirdly optimistic about everything and insist that they want to have kids at some point and I keep trying to talk them out of it, but whenever I do I not only get backlash but they also seem to treat me worse and are often bitter towards me long afterward. I really don't know how to communicate these opinions without coming off as callous or like a freak but i need help doing so
giving birth/pregnancy/pregnant people make me so mad whenever i see or hear about it.Why do people go around posting about their pregnancy and stuff like that, Like i get it that u are "proud" but like just stop, you dont know if that person even wants to be born, u might make the childs a living hell just by giving birth to it. It makes me so mad that i literally get the urge to punch a pregnant lady when i see one.
Same with babies, why do you have to post ur baby pictures, you cant even ask for permission from it
Posts like these just further cement my hatred of natalists
Insta couple that has 10 kids
Do kids somehow consent to being born?I had a dream years ago of meeting my mother in a dream of me in an older form before I was born and asked her if I could exist. I'm a big anti-natalist but I do always remember this whenever people say "I didn't ask to be born" because I feel like I did low-key, but it could be the discretion and responsibility of the parents to realize that it's a dangerous place and say no.
Do kids somehow consent to being born?I had a dream years ago of meeting my mother in a dream of me in an older form before I was born and asked her if I could exist. I'm a big anti-natalist but I do always remember this whenever people say "I didn't ask to be born" because I feel like I did low-key, but it could be the discretion and responsibility of the parents to realize that it's a dangerous place and say no.
They’re so selfish for wanting IVF.
Capitalism & Birthrates
Anyone else have a strong (inherent) physical attraction to pregnant woman, but also feel heavy emotional disgust when seeing someone that’s pregnant?…
They’re so selfish for wanting IVF.
(Serious) If you did not asked to be alive, why you cannot just go to a hospital and say: "Look, I am tired of life and I just wanna rest forever. Please help me do it in a pacific way"?We are basically forcing people to look for less human ways to die. Some people just do not like life and I do not see a trouble with that.
I don't feel bad for people who have miscarriagesB
There are a total of 14 contraceptive methods to avoid bringing a child to this cruel world, but there are people who prefer to pay $600 to $3,000 for an abortion method that ends up being much more bureaucratic and harmful. What people may call an "accident" I call incompetence.
Argument Against Antinatalism- All People Fall on The Masochist SpectrumI am not anti natalist though it's a philosophy I hold a lot of appreciation for as Thomas Ligotti is my favorite author and S1 true detective is my favorite piece of media of all time. Also this argument I'm sharing isn't one I necessarily believe but find interesting.
An ideology I more closely subscribe to is Buddhism, who Ligotti got me interested in to begin with. Both the Buddhist ideology and Antinatalism- is fairly accepting of the view all life is suffering, which brings me to my main point.
Hypothetically, if a group of beings existed and a majority of those beings received masochistic pleasure from their own individual self-struggle/suffering. Would that life still be worth living and propagating.
You people are bitterIdk why Reddit keeps recommending this group to me. I have no kids. I might not have kids. But to constantly shame and ridicule those who have children is wrong. You are ALL products of people of having children. You are hypocrites. If we all stopped having children the world would cease having humanity on it anymore. People have sex, sex is natural and sometimes birth control doesn’t work. Just because someone doesn’t want to have an abortion, which is traumatizing (I’ve had two), does not mean they are a bad person for having their baby.
Hey mods I think this sub needs to switch to privatewith the wave of posts in bad faith/asking "why do you believe in this" is excessive and we should private this sub so only members can engage
not learning from your mistakes and ending up with eight kids just sounds insane and pathetic.
Ask Me Anything I guessI'm what you guys call a "breeder", AMA
I LITERALLY HATE THIS FUCKING WORLD SO MUCH AND I HATE PREGNANT CHXSTFEEDERS. I literally had to work a 6 hour shift at my dance therapy instruction job and I felt nothing but disdain towards my parents for forcing me the frick onto this useless floating rock in a meat bag that. I hate this planet so much. I fucking hate republiKKKans for coercing my parents into birthing me into this meaningless existence. Every day I look up and see my diploma from the state school I attended with the degree in gender studies quilted onto the page I remember that I will never have a career. It makes me want to die. I'm thinking about saving 900$ to get a vasectomy so I will never have to bring a meaningless life into this earth. FUCK MAN, Heres a poem I made in my original language, I am thinking about getting a job that has to do with poetry, here it is: "Yo Yo Yo e ziua cu cocoașă! Ceea ce vreau să faci este să etichetezi 3 negri cu pula mare sub acest tweet chiar aici. Mai am nevoie de niggas cu care să fac această provocare „Bust That Nut”. Și ofer, de asemenea, un alt abonamente hunit gratuit pentru fanii mei. Fii atent la acel tweet mai târziu"
I don't feel bad for people who have miscarriagesB
I can’t stop hating mothersWhenever I see a mother or someone posting about getting pregnant online I can’t help but think how selfish they are. How can you bring someone into this world where they have to work a soul sucking job every day and do just all of the basic things to keep themselves alive. No matter how good of parents they are or think they ~will~ be I still can’t help but judge them. Especially mothers who claim they have or have had depression. If you’ve felt that desperation with life how can you justify creating another????? I need answers
Natalists be like:
Would you get your hypothetical child circumcised?
Pregnant women are my biggest trigger, anyone else?Partly because of my RAD, and the fact that I was abandoned and replaced soon as my birth mother became pregnant again, the other half due to anti-natalism. Also why do they say “congratulations”? Why are you so happy to be damning another innocent soul here? Idk, I’m probably overthinking it all, maybe peoples lives aren’t as hard as mine, thoughts?
I can’t stop hating mothersWhenever I see a mother or someone posting about getting pregnant online I can’t help but think how selfish they are. How can you bring someone into this world where they have to work a soul sucking job every day and do just all of the basic things to keep themselves alive. No matter how good of parents they are or think they ~will~ be I still can’t help but judge them. Especially mothers who claim they have or have had depression. If you’ve felt that desperation with life how can you justify creating another????? I need answers
Do you like sad shit?One point I've always felt very alone in, is my aversion to sad shit. I have never heard of anyone remotely agree with my perspective.
But thinking about it, the sadsturbator nonsense sounds an awful lot like breeder nonsense. "It makes it feel more real", "It's part of life", "without sadness there can be no happiness" etc.
So, simple question: Do you like sad shit? That is to say sad books, movies, shows, stories etc.
The womb is the most dangerous factory in the world. (Al-Qasimi Abdullah)
How many folks care for all suffering and who for just humans?
i just... how do their brains work???
i came across a youtube short from a medical sonographer and these comments made my heart ache, natalism has such a toxic grip on humanity.
r/AntiNatalism has become a cesspool of eugenicists.This is something I’ve been starting to notice for a long time but recently the issue has skyrocketed out of its prior proportion. There is so much blatantly anti-human, anti-*life*, rhetoric on here. The current mod team allows this rhetoric to fester and propagate into parasitism and is literally censoring anyone with any kind of dissenting opinion. This subreddit is now mostly an alt-right circle jerk of suicidal people who refuse to get any therapy out of pure hatred and prejudice.
The mod team has also disallowed crossposting and posting screenshots with u/ or r/ identifiers, essentially restricting all access to citations for primary sources that are not barred by skill (ie. News article from big multi conglomerate entity, research that may have lobbyist bias). This, in my eyes, speaks for itself on the efficacy and empathetic humanity of the people running this subreddit.
But, you know; what do you think? And another question: why are you, specifically, here in this subreddit, in general and right now?
"BEING SELFISH IS GOOD" - Natalists 🙄🙄🙄
Why aren’t more religious people anti-natalist? Why damn someone to eternal moral limbo?Thoughts? I’ll never reproduce cause of this reason, people are fallen and I’m tired of the earth, and the morals of my fellow man. What are some reasons for you?
How many folks care for all suffering and who for just humans?
Are there any Muslims on this subreddit? If yes, what are your thoughts on it?
How many folks care for all suffering and who for just humans?
Are there any Muslims on this subreddit? If yes, what are your thoughts on it?
Are there any Muslims on this subreddit? If yes, what are your thoughts on it?
Why natalists hate us so muchHonestly, I feel like a large reason we receive so much backlash is because natalists do not understand the difference between child-free and antinatalism. If we wanted kids, we could do the ethical thing and adopt. Our decision to not birth kids does not mean one can not *have* kids. Any natalist currently arguing about needing to specifically birth their own children is, in my opinion, straight up a selfish, narcissistic idiot. There is no shortage to the number of kids being born, so why do you specifically need to contribute to that number? When there are “an estimated 153 million children worldwide are orphans (UNICEF),” what is your reasoning for having kids that goes beyond anything fundamentally selfish? The *only* argument I have ever seen against the philanthropic antinatalist position is the need for more humans to continue the human race, but nobody ever gives a valid reason for why they specifically need to birth their own children despite knowing the risks it poses to the unborn and knowing that the human race is fully capable of continuing without their contribution.
can someone explain why this movement isn't a mass suicide cult?About half of my exposure to anti-natalism threads is people lamenting existence as only torment with no redeeming moments.
So first of all, what none of you ever even see an ass? Or whatever equivalent on a potential mate? Because I would endure the cycle of rebirth and the wheel of karmic suffering endlessly for even a sniff in 1 lifetime and be grateful.
More importantly- anyone can always just die if that's how they truly feel. How is this sentiment the organizing principle of the new astro-turfed reddit meme? Why don't you just die then? I am literally baffled and think that the only reason this is not the go-to reply is stupid moderation and fake schmaltzy virtue signalling.
I just want to have meaningful discussions about the nature of existence and freedom. Why are you always cluttering up our ethical discussions with your sad therapy venting?
If Nobody felt sad you wouldnt know what happiness wasIf the world was perfect in AN eyes everybody would Live without suffering ever. But we would know no happiness without suffering. And we know no peace without war. So think about that since you guys are Geniuses😏😏
If Nobody felt sad you wouldnt know what happiness wasIf the world was perfect in AN eyes everybody would Live without suffering ever. But we would know no happiness without suffering. And we know no peace without war. So think about that since you guys are Geniuses😏😏
No suffering me for me, but lots of suffering for thee! 👹🔪 #FuckHumanSupremacists
can someone explain why this movement isn't a mass suicide cult?About half of my exposure to anti-natalism threads is people lamenting existence as only torment with no redeeming moments.
So first of all, what none of you ever even see an ass? Or whatever equivalent on a potential mate? Because I would endure the cycle of rebirth and the wheel of karmic suffering endlessly for even a sniff in 1 lifetime and be grateful.
More importantly- anyone can always just die if that's how they truly feel. How is this sentiment the organizing principle of the new astro-turfed reddit meme? Why don't you just die then? I am literally baffled and think that the only reason this is not the go-to reply is stupid moderation and fake schmaltzy virtue signalling.
I just want to have meaningful discussions about the nature of existence and freedom. Why are you always cluttering up our ethical discussions with your sad therapy venting?
can someone explain why this movement isn't a mass suicide cult?About half of my exposure to anti-natalism threads is people lamenting existence as only torment with no redeeming moments.
So first of all, what none of you ever even see an ass? Or whatever equivalent on a potential mate? Because I would endure the cycle of rebirth and the wheel of karmic suffering endlessly for even a sniff in 1 lifetime and be grateful.
More importantly- anyone can always just die if that's how they truly feel. How is this sentiment the organizing principle of the new astro-turfed reddit meme? Why don't you just die then? I am literally baffled and think that the only reason this is not the go-to reply is stupid moderation and fake schmaltzy virtue signalling.
I just want to have meaningful discussions about the nature of existence and freedom. Why are you always cluttering up our ethical discussions with your sad therapy venting?
can someone explain why this movement isn't a mass suicide cult?About half of my exposure to anti-natalism threads is people lamenting existence as only torment with no redeeming moments.
So first of all, what none of you ever even see an ass? Or whatever equivalent on a potential mate? Because I would endure the cycle of rebirth and the wheel of karmic suffering endlessly for even a sniff in 1 lifetime and be grateful.
More importantly- anyone can always just die if that's how they truly feel. How is this sentiment the organizing principle of the new astro-turfed reddit meme? Why don't you just die then? I am literally baffled and think that the only reason this is not the go-to reply is stupid moderation and fake schmaltzy virtue signalling.
I just want to have meaningful discussions about the nature of existence and freedom. Why are you always cluttering up our ethical discussions with your sad therapy venting?
I believe me being an antinatalist is simply an act of sacrifice.It is interesting to me to read what people write about not wanting to have children and it seems to me that most people don't want children for their own comfort and peace in life which is very much reasonable and understandable. But for me, it is way deeper than that. I, personally would like the idea of having a child of my own blood but the thought of them growing up in such messed up world and having to carry the burden of life and existence, stops me from having kids or even considering it. I am sacrificing my own liking to have children for the sake of my children who will never be born and I think that is the whole idea and it is beautiful.
shit sucks
This idea is fundamentally wrong and will not stand the test of timeThere's a reason to why we are all here, your parents had children and their parents had children and so on and so forth, by their choice to have children y'all are here, but now you're demoralizing the act and thus forbidding the furtherment of your genes, possibly valuable ones. However, without your children or deranged people in the future, your ideology will eventually fade away through natural selection, so as with your life, you should enjoy it while it lasts.
I don’t understand your guys point of view.Let me ask what would happen if we all believed the same as you guys there would be no people left. What if your parents had this point of view you guys wouldn’t exist. So i don’t understand you position in society do you guys strive for the end of the human race or do you hold your beliefs and hope that there are others who don’t. I just wanna say there is no disrespect in this post it’s merely conversation. You guys can believe what you want i just wanna know the in and outs.
Natalists are searching for philosophical amunition to reinforce their arguments
I am SO fucking SICK of the depopulation agitprop being shoved down our throats.This has become one of the biggest hot button topics with the media circulating all this depopulation doomsday nonsense and everyone collectively despairing about how we're basically heading for extinction because people aren't having enough babies. And it is SUCH. FUCKING. BULLSHIT.
First of all, despite the media selectively fixating on declining birth countries in certain countries, they conveniently seem to always omit the fact that the population is still projected to exceed ELEVEN BILLION in 2100. Even if there's a considerable population drop-off in some countries we will still have MORE than enough people on this planet. The less populated countries will accept migrants from the overpopulated countries, provided that their labor supply is a bigger issue than their other resource limitations, which it may well not be.
None of this doomsday depopulation narrative EVER takes into consideration the very real implications of climate change. Some places will no longer even be able to sustain the current population in the first place due to lowered food production (drought, flooding, atmospheric drying, increased pest population, soil degradation, etc.) as well as decreased freshwater availability. This is not a matter of conjecture but a conceded inevitability that's already in the process of happening now. Therefore a lowered population would not only be a benefit but a critical necessity. Food and water is essential for life, not sure if any of these morons bothered to notice.
Instead of giving two shits about climate change people want to fixate on the short term difficulties that will result from having a topheavy population with a large elderly generation. The temporary hardship that will result from having a smaller younger generation and larger older generation will never outweigh the global suffering that'll result from continued population growth. Because food productivity and freshwater availability is decreasing. And green energy alone will never be enough to address those issues, absent significant population decline and/or radical changes to consumption habits that have yet to manifest to any perceptible degree.
Civilization managed to function with a global population under a billion for thousands of years. And that's without advanced technology and AI. We're not even able to sustainably support our current population now, yet we're freaking out about a slowed population growth in certain countries while the overall global population continues increasing. The people who are buying into this manufactured hysteria are fucking mindless idiots. Wait til their kids find out that they brought them into a world of climate change hell and global suffering because they thought having kids was their societal duty.
no thanks
Do you think Antinatalism is "objectively right"?I have been looking at this sub from time to time since I do find the philosophical aspect about ethics and morals in relation to procreation interesting and enjoy seeing these discussions.
However, over time I wondered how some people here understand the idea of antinatalism.
Do you see AN as an "objective truth", meaning that AN is the right answer to the world's problems?
Or do you see AN your own perceived answer to a problem. Meaning it's an opinion and not a "correct answer". It's what you believe but you agree that it may not be necessarily truly "correct"
I know the way I phrased this a bit weirdly, but I couldn't for the life of me find a better way to describe it and I am very interested to hear people's opinion
My problem with antinatalismThere is nothing wrong if you personally don't want to have kids because you think it's bad but a problem arises when you try to impose a moral compass on everyone while morality is subjective, since right and wrong is based on feelings and varies from person to person.
I personally find beauty in existence despite suffering, the strangeness and beauty of existence makes it all worth it, and i think it would be a shame to not exist at least once and experience the world and pain and pleasure, in fact i think it would be bad if there was no one to experience it all, so imo having existed is good no matter how good or bad your life was.I see nothing wrong with giving birth to a child even if he will inevitably suffer.
Basically i value the act of existing and having the capacity to reflect on life more than how pleasurable life itself is.
Of course this is just my personal philosophy and it is subjective as well but it offers you a different perspective on life and allows you to be more nuanced than staunchly believing reproduction is bad.I personally like the idea of assisted suicide being readily available for those who wish to opt out but don't think people should stop reproducing.I don't understand why antinatalists so firmly believe in their philosophy like a religion, it feels like to me this is more emotional than logical.
edit: it seems people are focusing on my personal philosophy, i do not wish to impose it on anyone as i have mentioned it is subjective, i just mentioned it to show you how subjective morality is.
pro-life sticker at the bus stop outside UC Davis obstetrics can't cover it with marker incredibly difficult to scrape off
I just needed a place to mourn my friendship and get my thoughts out.I realize that relationships change, and that everything ends eventually. I just didn't realize it would be less than a year that I would go from being the one to hang out whenever/wherever to last seeing them on New Years.
(We used to have parties that would go on 3 days - we'd have a good spread, guests would come and go (to work) and we would all just gather for games and movies and cooking and social. The party was hosted at their home, and were kicked out at 2am on the nose despite talks of pining for one of those 3 day parties like we used to have.
Unrelated point, when partner's guests were gone partner disappeared, and only came back to countdown to midnight, and say goodnight. I saw them for only a half hour of 6 hour or so party in an apartment.)
I just have to come to terms that bestie is a liar. But I already knew that. There are secrets I now hold because of their lies. Or rather just don't ask, don't tell. I could spill the beans and their relationship would be in jeopardy. I don't want to be in this position at all. I hate that I have this "you could burn it all down - why don't you?" I don't want to be that person.
My bestie announced that they're trying for a baby. And their partner is type-A personality; (whatever bologna the jobs market made up) high-strung all the time. I'm very casual and silly. Jokes are always taken litterally and I have had to walk back a joke many-a-time, offended, (one such example was a younger relative at a gathering was having a mild meltdown over her clothes, I said "oh you're so cute I could kiss those cheeks until they melt off!" To which partner scolded "Alright, let's not put that image in her head.") Or just plain old open mouth, insert foot. I never seem to have a conversation that doesn't end up with me wishing I didn't open my mouth.
So to releive a little stress and to tease a little I send videos from kidsarefuckingstupid and I pick three, one where a crawfish is pinching a boys finger and he's screaming like a super saian, another where the house is covered in paint, and dad asks baby what he's doing, 'I'm washing my hands', and a last where a dog was sniffing a boys crotch so he pees on the dog.
Partner tells me to stop and that these are actually hurtful, and to not try and convince them not to have a kid just because I don't want any. It will be a bessing if they have a baby. What I think is the most wild is that partner was in the foster system their whole life until 18 and was kicked out and homeless off and on. A front row seat to the system and the children in it, and refuses to adopt.
At this point no words only videos. I knew my friend would find them hilarious as I did, but I'm the asshole, yo.
It was the straw that broke the camels back. I was so sick of being treated like a monster because my humor is different. I had a house key and I wrote a note with the keys in an envelope and drove to their house to put the key in the mailbox.
My note said I get it. I'm not welcome as the first time I ever used this key I was greeted to "I'm calling the police!" When I was dropping off mail that arrived at my house and to pet their cat. (Even as I announced that it was me, the door opened slowly and partner looked at me through the cracked door for a moment, like I wasn't me or some shit.) And the second time I used the key was to pet sit the kitties, so the house was empty. My friend enjoyed the freedom of having a key to my house and popping over whenever the mood struck. But I am not allowed that. I am only ever needed when I'm convenient. Now you won't have to worry about me breaking and entering.
Partner apologized promptly after I said that they're being a hardass with no humor and I frankly didn't open the text I saw something about baby brain and I was just totally put off.
Bestie called me today but I didn't talk to them either. It's not their fault I was being dramatic with giving their home key back. And it's not their responsibility to smooth out a relationship that I could never iron flat. I already never see them, why have a key to a house I'm unwelcomed in? Not officially, but I don't have to hang onto something that hurts.
The biggest lies that my bestie said were they weren't the settling down type, nor were they the type to have a kid.
When they found their partner and wed (less than 2 year window), I helped them move and was told at that point that our relationship wasn't going to change, we would still hang, and his partner has always been welcomed, but frankly they don't like a lot of our likes so always sit out.
I've tried my best. I've tried to be friends with their partner, and I never get an inch. And knowing a baby is in their future I'm furious that the only time I'll be summoned is when I can babysit (probably). I don't think they have a fucking clue what a shit-hole world their bringing a spawn into, but I'm the asshole for being like - hey dipshits, a baby probably isn't going to be this blessing you think it will be. Not when active shooters are more commonplace than lightning bugs.
When's the last time you saw a lightning bug? Mine was 5 summers ago.
No suffering me for me, but lots of suffering for thee! 👹🔪 #FuckHumanSupremacists
No suffering me for me, but lots of suffering for thee! 👹🔪 #FuckHumanSupremacists
Remember to Stay Away from Eugenics ArgumentsI'm a strong Catholic that occasionally lurks here. I understand the philosophical arguments presented here and I sympathize but don't make it about if a certain person has good genes. I've seen posts about someone with a facial deformity and comments like "and she still chose to breed" or something. If you want to believe life has negative of value, the same logic should apply to healthy beautiful people, don't target the facially disabled.
I'll never understand...
Mature adults accept that antinatalism is trueI am 26 and antinatalism makes sense as the default.
People have to go through hoops and to lengths in attempts to 'demonstrate' otherwise.
Natalist leftists be like
I…what?
If you can understand why consent is required to sleep with someone…Then you should be able to comprehend why consent should be required to birth someone here.
**DISCLAIMER:** I am not equating all parents to rap*st. I’m not saying birth is just as traumatic as SA.
I’m saying that some of the same REASONS you need consent to sleep with someone are the same reasons you need consent to birth someone into this dangerous world.
**Both events are uncalled for and can unfairly lead up to trauma.** Some may never recover. Some may unalive themselves. It’s completely unfair. That’s why it’s wrong.
————————————————————————————————
**”But a child can’t consent!”**
Neither can a person who is black-out drunk or permanently in a mentally disabled, veggie state. Does that mean you should be able to force yourself onto them anyway when they cannot consent?
**”Well they might enjoy life!”**
A rap*st could say the same thing about having non consensual sex with their victim. It’s a pathetic attempt to justify enacting your will onto others. That still won’t justify taking the risk. There are plenty of minors from the 80s still reminiscing about the adult men they dated back in high school. Not an excuse.
————————————————————————————————
Even if a person who is black out drunk won’t remember the assault, it’s still not justified in the eyes of society to violate them. Even if your partner is in a deep sleep, still not justified. Taking the risk at all is apart of the crime.
The same logic should be applied to parents. But if I’m wrong, please feel free to correct me.
2 Polls with similar ideas, birth is seen as more ethical. Obviously tons of nuance is missing here, but an interesting surface level difference shows through.
Wow. Just wow.Tagged NSFW for sensitive content.
for privacy I have covered usernames.
I seriously cannot wrap my head around this. Why are they exploiting the poor child for money??? Why do people do this to suffering infants and young children?
They got banned before but keep making accounts and just set her up in front of a camera all day. Idk about you guys but this makes me not ever want to have kids
We’re getting there
Moscow Murder Victim Ethan’s momI don’t want to appear insensitive using her as an example and Its horrible her kid was murdered— literally no one is saying its not cuz we r real humans— but she’s in news today with a supposedly “grace filled” post talking about how she just took her other 2 teen kids back to the SAME COLLEGE their brother was killed at, with remarks about their reactions, and even made some remark how Ethan was such a great kid cuz how great their family was. And there was some thing about how all his stuff is being held by defense like even a great pair of golf clubs. Like im sorry what?
Dude, I loose my cat I delete my socials and don’t talk to anyone for a year. And shes being lauded as a saint for these words of “love and light”.
I can’t w parents. Any of them. Its mental to bring anyone into this hell. LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM. And it seems they use situations like this to benefit themselves, even if it is just a cope, i get that, but maybe just say thats what it is…
I think parents loose the ability to see reality. Thus they have to make the ‘best of things’ with toxic positivity and thats the best case scenario I guess… but its still not truthful.
endgameI am genuinely curious. I want to ask this without being offensive but with subreddits like this one I struggle to understand the endgame. Is it just a bunch of people who don't ever want kids that want to complain about it online?
I need to point out here that I completely agree with the hatred for the fetishism of having children etc, (which is why I am here.)
So it's possible (tell me so) that I basically just don't get Reddit. This is possible as I am an extremely light user of social media and am 38 years old, so old enough to remember not having internet at all, dial up modems, calling friends on landlines, flip phones, and the period of time that Facebook became really popular.
MOST RELIGIONS DONT MAKE ANY SENSE BECAUSE THere IS NO SUCH THING AS GOOD OR EVILSome might say some people are inherently evil and they are born to like hurting people. But isn't that natural then? Even if they were born to be that way so that makes them "evil" doesn't that make we as society evil for punishing him and treating him/hee badly for their own nature?. Free will does not exist you have to remember.
Mother boasted about how much she loved her kids on Facebook – ‘then dragged son, 6, to death to please lover’An article called, 'The Hidden Trauma of Neglect in the Narcissistic Family,' will make this all the more clear. Narcissists will love bomb and try to put on a good impression, all the while sabotaging and destroying the very life they bring forth into this world. Looking at the photos of the kid's head, it seems he had a lot of "loving," if you count the scars (both physical and likely emotional, prior to his death.)
[https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/10/chilling-facebook-posts-of-mother-who-killed-son-6-to-please-her-lover-14195908/](https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/10/chilling-facebook-posts-of-mother-who-killed-son-6-to-please-her-lover-14195908/)
she’s being called selfish and getting lots of hate in the replies… i got disappointed just reading some of them
I love my hypothetical children more than every natalist loves their real ones by defaultAnd so do you, hopefully. Wild to think about.
Saw this on the way home and wondered what other people thought of itIts on the back of a bus, not sure how clear the picture is
My aunt's wife caused a car accident because she was sad/angry over a miscarriageEnglish is not my first language, sorry for any mistakes.
So, my aunt (45yo trans woman) and her wife (f, almost 50yo) have been (obsessively) trying to have a baby for over 6 years now, but because of their ages and some health issues 4 miscarriages already occurred, and every single time it's hard to watch how devastated they get, especially the wife. A lot of people told them to adopt since they want to raise a kid so badly, but the wife refused with the old selfish remark "I want a child of my own, that has my blood".
Now to add context to the car accident: my grandma (f83y) passed away recently and my grandpa (m87y) was extremely sad after losing his companion of almost 60 years, so all of their children (my dad and his siblings) decided to get him out of the house to see some new places and clear his head. My aunt came to spend the New Year's Eve with us and was the first to offer to take him with them to their home for a few days (in a city about 2 hours from here), we were all happy to see my grandpa excited to go out and travel after all the sadness he's been through.
The thing is, during the New Year's Eve we noticed how distant and snappy my aunt's wife was being, but she usually gets like this so nobody thought much about it. The three of them left on the morning of January 1st (we advised against it because the road would be packed with people coming back from the beach/other cities after the holidays, but they didn't listen) and about an hour and a half later my dad receives a call about the accident.
After they were taken to the hospital we were told that my aunt's wife was driving behind a truck and forced an overtake on a two-way lane even without clear vision, proceeding to crash front first into the car coming from the opposite direction. My grandpa was riding shotgun and fractured 3 vertebrae and both wrists, my aunt broke her clavicle and my aunt's wife suffered trauma to her hips. All of this happened because she was sad over a recent miscarriage, let her emotions take over and began driving irresponsibly out of sadness, even while having a fragile elderly person in the car with her.
Now my grandpa is still at the hospital in a lot of pain and my aunt had to go through surgery, just because this woman couldn't control her emotions. Obviously now she feels guilty, but it doesn't make much of a difference since all of this could've been easily avoided if only she was less obsessed about bringing a child into the world.
Serious talkI'm not very clear about this antinatalism thing. If child birth is morally wrong, would it imply for people not to make any children? Let's leave the whole thing of newcomers - in hope that someone will do it ..?
Also, I would link this kind of movement into Infanticide, (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide) as history likes to repeat itself..
Am I missing something?
Pregnancy scare is turning me into an antinatalistMy partner (F42) recently changed her mind about taking birth control due to not wanting “to introduce unnatural substances to her body.” I respected her choice and made it clear that I was neither ready for and potentially will never be ready for children, which she seemed to take well enough.
We came to a compromise of only having sex well outside of her ovulation zone as tracked by her period app. Condoms were always my preference but we eventually did the “pull out method” instead. She had been pressuring me into having unprotected sex and the baby talk dramatically increased to the point that my discomfort led to me suggesting we our relationship take a break.
She did not take this well and kept telling me that we had unprotected sex not long ago and that she had no plans of abortions.
So this isn’t really a scare as there’s no evidence that she could be pregnant as her period isn’t late. But let me know if there’s anything to worry about given these three factors
1) her age which would make even pregnancy by choice within her ovulation window difficult. 2) me pulling out and not even ejaculating during the act 3) the act occurring well out her fertility window (according to the app).
Even she agrees that the chance is slim but then goes on about this nonsense about the universe and child choosing their parents regardless of material condition. My fears are mostly likely irrational but I could use some reassurance
I am also obviously breaking up with her once I am 100% sure as well as getting a vasectomy after this debacle. The idea of having a child or a child being the sole purpose of a relationship is nauseating to me.
Saw this and well... wanted to share here. The word "hate" is what stood out to me the most.
Born Into a Mental Illness
" How do I educate my young child? | J. Krishnamurti " Felt like this video contains really valuable insight on the same topics we discuss here on r/antinatalism. Share your thoughts
Antinatalism of Sanatan dharam is called Moksh
How many of you are here because you believe terrible people shouldn’t have kids, and how many are here because they believe the world is bad so people shouldn’t have kids?These can be called the same but they are separate. I’m here cause I know what a terrible parent can cause. But I see posts here and it’s almost mocking people who can provide happy lives because they decided to have kids…
Shows how far people will go to get an ego boost, a desire for being “someone’s world” sounds a bit narcissistic to me
Look what came today!A step in the right direction!
I won't ever understand how someone can be so selfish and narcissistic.
How is parenthood not selfish? I've seen so many posts like that...
Substantial Meaning in Existence
What is anti-natalism?So I actually have a child of my own but I stumbled across this sub from a mom post with a comment that says you’re all bitter people…
However after reading through some of the posts and comments those of you here seem very reasonable and the philosophy I’m picking up on seems very merciful. And I’m curious to understand better because it seems to actually align with a lot of what I have going on in my head.
I love my child more than anything but I can’t help but think about how truly terrible the world is and how I want nothing more than to protect him from it, while knowing I can’t 100%.
I grew up religious and was fed the idea of marriage and babies were the only way to live a fulfilling life. I am married with one child and honestly I have no complaints about how my life turned out as a result regardless of me not buying into that whole religion schtick anymore.
I love the earth and all that she provide for us and it pains me to see how humans exploit her. I also desperately wish that humans could treat each other with respect and love in general but that has never been properly exhibited in the history of humanity… I used to think that having and raising good humans was the way to break that cycle, but now I’m not so sure that there are enough good people to be good parents in order to raise children to be good enough to break the cycle.
Anyway, would those of you who see this mind sharing some more insights? Thanks in advance :)
Life is pretty coolI don’t want to have kids. At least not right now, the world is way too messed up. I do like my life though, I get to see beaches and the most humbling mountain scenes. I can even climb mountains and camp out in the most picturesque spot to watch the sun set. This luxury isn’t available to everyone, and honestly that pains me at times. We’re all present in a time where access to the best things is readily available and that access should become easier to attain. Appreciation of nature is what we pass along, it’s like parenting is a constant throw back if we did it right. I disagree that reproducing is irresponsible. It should be done when two people are so enamored with each other and the world that they agree “someone else has to see this”
why do natalists NOT want to adopt so bad.they will go to great great lengths just to not adopt. things like ivf or even surrogacy using their genes. there’s so many kids that actually need homes. but no, you just HAVE to have a mini me don’t u.
“adoption is too tedious and expensive!” wow crazy idea that maybe if it’s too expensive you might not be financially stable enough for a kid in the first place. and the whole it’s too tedious argument it’s just another way of saying “i’m probably an unfit parent and would pass the social worker meeting”.
I hate really hate this matrix or simulation. I’m a loser in here and I want out. I don’t remember choosing to be born here and to live this life.
It bothers me how so many people basically throw away their pets the second they have a kid.
Why do so many women who have Endometriosis try so hard to have kids?Like your daughter will most likely have Endometriosis because its mainly genetic. She will be in excruciating pain for half of the month. Just because you want kids. Alot of mother justify this by saying they will be there to support them. Like what are you supporting them thru severe pain and depression from a problem you caused and could of prevented. Some mothers say they will fight for her Endo to not be dismissed. Like what's the doctors going to do. Preform surgery and remove the Endo from her organs just so it can regrow after a couple of months or prescribe your daughter painkillers that don't work. Theres no cure for Endo just shitty treatments. Some mothers even try to deny that it's genetic and say well my mom didn't have it but I did. So what does that have to do with anything. Your daughter still has a 7× more chance of her developing a chronic illness.
If someone with a physical disability who had chronic pain tried so hard to get pregnant like women with Endometriosis people would be outrage and say why are you putting your kids thru this but since you can't see Endometriosis most people don't care.
I saw a video of a disabled women being pregnant and everyone bashed her rightfully so but the women with Endometriosis gets praised for becomeing pregnant. I think they should both be equally critized and bullied for there decisions but since Endo is a invisible disease no one cares.
The Endo women also went thru multiple rounds of IVF just to have a baby. Like your infertile for a reason you have extreamly shit genetics that shouldn't be passed down take the hint. Since you have so much money and time to do IVF just adopt.
If you don't know what Endometriosis is
Endometriosis is a condition in which cells similar to the lining of the uterus, or Endometrium, grow outside the uterus. this causes severe pain when the lineing sheds beacuse theres no way for the blood to leave the body.
Advice/ how do I get my family to stop asking/telling me to have kids.I 28F and my partner 29M do not ever want kids. Never. However, both my family and his family are so upset and angry about this. We have told them time and time again that we will not be having kids. We even tell them all that he has a vasectomy to get them to stop. So far nothing has worked and I'm so tired of it that I stopped communication with them for months. Yesterday, I spoke briefly to my grandmother who was just admitted to the hospital. It was suppose to be a conversation about her, however, two seconds in she says *"You're pushing thirty, you need to get started on having kids."* to which I tell her I will not ever be having kids. Then there is my mother, *"Where are my grandbabies! I want grandbabies!",* which is laughable considering she was a miserable mother who only imparted trauma on everyone she raised and a crippling eating disorder on my sister. All of this just makes me want to vomit. These are the people who have encouraged me and support my decision for higher education; who have told me over and over to focus on my ambitions. Now that I am on the other side of more than a decade worth of education they want me to drop it all and be a housewife/mother?! There is no way in hell that is ever happening. Is there anything I can do to get them to stop? If I have to suffer through one more conversation where *"grandbabies"* is mentioned, I will lose it on all of them and their pathetic meaningless lives.
"But you'd be a great dad!"Was over for dinner at my parents' tonight and the topic shifted to current events. My mom went on for a few minutes about how terrible kids have it now being glued to devices, not having as many friends, and all the chaos going on.
I felt like this was the perfect opportunity to tell her those are some of the main reasons why I definitely don't want to have kids. You would've thought I took out a copy of the Bible and took a shit in Psalms the way she looked at me. Totally dumbfounded as to why I'd feel that way, even after she herself literally said "I would not want to be a parent in this generation."
Save yourself the hypocrisy and annoying conversations and just keep it to yourself because most people aren't going to understand. I tell the truth when I feel it's necessary but I try to steer away from the topic generally, it just felt like the perfect time to break the news to her so she wouldn't pester me in a few years about grandkids.
Intro animation for the antinatalism themed 2D game | The Pessimist |
Serious question… who is going to take care of us?Hi guys! This is a serious question and I know people are going to take it in the worst way HOWEVER I’m from latin America and here the “raising kids so they can take care of you when you’re older” is pretty strong. Do you guys have any plans or know any options for elders? Are you financially preparing yourself for when you’re 80? 90? Maybe 100 years? I don’t want to have a kid just to feel like they SHOULD TAKE CARE OF ME but I’m worried about my future…
What made me a natalist again.You want it or not, every antinatalist has a bit of nihilism in them, the definition of nihilism is the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless, which means that pain, suffering or sadness are just chemicals and nervous responses from the brain, in the end all that stuff are just evolutionary traits that we've developed thanks to natural selection, we're machines made to survive. Don't get me wrong, i also hate pain, it's in my nature to feel this way, but i think our ability to have consciousness, against all odds, even tho we came from a massive and crazy universe, it's just too precious to be ended just because my monke brain thinks that's the best way to feel good about myself. I'm really selfish for thinking this way, i know this, but just having consciousness is enough to make anyone happy, even tho the world is fucked, even tho the climate change is here, even tho death awaits every being.
We're the universe, and living is just a moment of it, and it's incredible that life even exists, so why stop with life? Just because of my opinion and morals? It makes no sense! Ik people don't asked to be born, however, just the fact that they can question their existence is already amazing on it's own. Antinatalists tend to be very negative about everything, they try to be morally perfect when our universe doesn't care, if everything doesn't matter in the end, another child in the world wouldn't matter too, so just give a chance to these bunch of atoms to feel how it's like to live, if they're smart enough they will see how privileged they are to live as humans, and experience the universe as the universe.
You guys are kind, it's really hard to see humans suffering, i know that, i don't think pain is good, that's why i think life can also wait if one's future is certain to be fucked up, use condons if you're able to, specially if you think you're not prepared for kids, but don't think life can't be good. morals don't exist in the end, and the universe is beautiful.
TL:DR Consciousness > pain
(English isn't my first language as you can see, you can correct anything if you think you should)
It’s one thing to tell people that you’re not having kids I’m used to the reactions. But if you tell them you’re antinatalism oh my!I was recently at an event and I got a little looser than I normally do and I told some people why we’re re re really not having kids and you would think I turned into Jim Jones or Pol Pot!!!
Multiple children / mothers tiktok. Watch if you have a few minutes and can tolerate being angry
Have you been permanently sterilized?
help me understandSo I'm new to this whole antinatalism thing and I completely support the idea. However what's up with the veganism? What does it have to do with antinatalism?? Help me understand pls
How can anyone justify having a child at this point anymore?Like seriously, do they never see the world in front of them? Before 2020, I kind of understand it's a biological desire for many people, but, now, I can't even comprehend why you would do such a thing to a new human being.
Hateful natalists are plaguing this subNot only do they need to spread their hate to us through comments, they will actively report you or harass you outside of this sub as well.
Be careful, and stay child free!
Having a “wish I was never born” day.I’m so upset today. I’m so tired of how ass backwards our world is. Where right is wrong and wrong is right. Where people who crap out kids get everything handed to them and the single child free are constantly dumped on. I look to my parents at time when my clinical depression is bad and say “life is a scam, why’d you bring me here?”.
socratic method..what is the purpose of sex? why? why? keep asking why until you reach a conclusion. show your work. peace
edit to add:
sex feels good.
why? because we've evolved for it to feel good.
why? because those who find sex pleasurable are more likely to reproduce.
why? genes
why? i don't know
Wtf are we doing?I saw a video post of a woman (loose acquaintance) in which she was talking about how her first year postpartum she spent a lot of time focusing on “bouncing back” from the pregnancy, not just physically but also in her career, social life etc. Only to come to the realization that life is in her words “boring and meaningless” and she wonders “what the fuck are we doing as a society?” And so on, but now as a mother she has “found her purpose”.
I was very curious about this, as I too feel like “wtf are we doing as a society.” And it’s one of the reasons why I will not be having children.
So I asked her very politely “if you feel like wtf are we doing as a society, which I agree with, what made you decided to have a child who will grow up is said society? Genuine curiosity, feel free not to answer”.
Immediately blocked. 😂
Make it make sense! You said it first!
But like…..maybe you should have considered that before forcing another person to exist, and frankly it’s weird if you didn’t make that consideration.
Are you open about your antinatalist views?My office mate asked for my reddit username (weird ik), I politely declined as her seeing my activity on here would maybe hurt her feelings. She is a mother of two and planning the third.
I do talk about not wanting kids, and the ethical/practical reasons of that casually with her, but never as flat and honest as I am/have been on this sub.
Now that made me reflect on how public I am about my views. Do you care about offending the majority of people irl that happen to be natalists? Why? Why not? This sub, being a community of like-minded folks, it’s comfortable and safe to be so honest, but is that against the unwritten laws of common sense if done irl?
Upvote this PollAntinatalism is not about the hatred of babies, children, or their parents. There are antinatalists who adopt kids or parents who later becomes antinatalist. To make antinatalism popular, and to avoid getting branded as child-hating people-We should ban child hatred, parent hatred contentsOnly Philanthropic antinatalism will make our movement popular. **How to make Antinatalism popular?** Comment below
attaching an image from AN Facebook group, this is the reason I think it's wrong to hate parents for their ignorance. Many of them realize about AN quite later in their life. Antinatalism requires rebranding as an empathetic movement not childhating,parent hating group
My alcoholic coworker and her Heroine-addicted ex decided to have 3 kids…Preface: this post will make me sound like an asshole. Sorry. My coworker is a nice person but hearing the stories about her kids is enraging and sad. TLDR at bottom.
(My coworker is now in her late fifties or so.) When her ex found out their kids were conceived by my coworker purposefully - and intentionally - lying about being on birth control (because he didn’t want kids and she did) he left her. This happened when the kids were babies and she “didn’t really drink back then” (aka 1 bottle a night instead of 4 now). She says to “cope” with the divorce she drank while trying to raise 3 of them by herself around the kids. Here is how the kids (now adults) are doing now:
The oldest is homeless and suffering a crippling addiction to crystal meth. He cut off his mom when he found out how he was conceived and is openly angry he exists. He is also suicidal. He is probably on this sub actually.
My coworker’s middle child has many genetically inherited mental disorders to the point where she almost lives outside of reality and is a danger to society. She is thirty and will be living in a care facility soon.
The youngest is 14 and already showing signs indicating severe alcoholism as well as behaviors indicating severe depression and possibly bipolar (from the therapist).
What inspired this rant? My coworker admitted she knew bringing these kids into the world they would probably be addicts but she “didn’t care and wanted them anyways.” I cannot put my negative emotions into words and probably won’t be able to figure out how to do so, ever. She spends her evenings crying/drinking about how her life no longer has meaning because the kids have abandoned her.
Fuck natalists. Also cis-men wrap it or snip it. My coworker is not the only woman who has - or will be - lying about conception to baby trap you. That is all.
TLDR; an alcoholic baby trapped an addict into breeding (knowing the kids would be genetically fucked) then raised three kids alone. Breeder knew and didn’t care these kids will grow up to be addicts with other mental health problems and genuinely didn’t care about that or the damage she would cause by raising them all while consistently drunk. Bonus she is upset they abandoned her when they became adults and can’t figure it out 🧐
And we're the crazy ones...
So I saw a post saying that hateful Natalists were invading the community. This is what I have to say to support everyone in this community and their believes.Do or think whatever you want, because you are a random person on the internet that doesn’t know my address and I want to stay that way. Good day sir.
(This is literally the first time I’ve ever been here, Reddit told me I might like it.)
Anyone on the app “Nextdoor”? I’m being bombarded by pro-lifer boomers and gen xer’s on my pro-choice post. I’d love for you guys to chime in!
How can any anti-natalist NOT hate their parents?It doesn't make sense to me. I absolutely hate my parents. Whether they're good or bad people, they're still breeders at the end of the day. They subjected me to a life I didn't ask for, and yet they still have the audacity to tell me how to live it.
Their selfish and narcissistic choice to have me is the root cause of all of my suffering. Thanks to them having me, I now deal with depression and anxiety which both eat me alive everyday and make me suicidal. Thanks to them I have to work as a corporate slave doing something I hate for the rest of my life until I'm 60. Thanks to them, I have to live in a society where I'm made fun of and judged for things that are out of my control. Thanks to them I live in a world where I run the risk of being killed, sexually assaulted, tortured, etc. All of the pain that has occurred and may continue to occur is directly related to their choice in having me. The same goes for everyone else. Your misery and suffering may not directly be related to your parents, but they're ultimately the reason why it's even there to begin with. Fucking narcissists.
Even if they were good people (which they're not even close to) I would still hate them for bringing me into a world I absolutely don't want anything to do with.
Whenever I think about all of the problems I have, my hatred for my parents grows. None of these problems would exist had they simply not had me. And no one can convince me that life is worth the suffering. That's absolutely subjective. As much fun as I have with my hobbies and the things I enjoy, I would rather die than to stay here. The good outweighs the bad.
Anti-Natalism: The deontological argument.• Autonomy is required for
consent within negative
deontology.
• In the creation of consciousness within the boundaries of Anti-Natalism, there is no autonomy.
• Therefore, there is no consent.
• Autonomy, consent and morality all flow together. If you reject the requirement for any one of them, the entire moral theory collapses.
What do you guys think?
Mature adults accept that antinatalism is trueI am 26 and antinatalism makes sense as the default.
People have to go through hoops and to lengths in attempts to 'demonstrate' otherwise.
“You will hinder the progress of humanity”
What do you do when it feels like there’s nothing left worth experiencing?I’ve worked for 32 years. Did the school thing. Got married. Traveled. Danced in a raving ecstasy haze. Won awesome contests. Seen births. Seen deaths. Laughed till my sides hurt. Cried till my eyes dried out. Felt true joy watching my puppy run in the grass. What’s left to experience? I don’t want to keep experiencing the drudgery of life for the few random bits of pure happiness I might yet experience. How do you go on?
Remember to Stay Away from Eugenics ArgumentsI'm a strong Catholic that occasionally lurks here. I understand the philosophical arguments presented here and I sympathize but don't make it about if a certain person has good genes. I've seen posts about someone with a facial deformity and comments like "and she still chose to breed" or something. If you want to believe life has negative of value, the same logic should apply to healthy beautiful people, don't target the facially disabled.
Alaska Republican touts benefits of children being abused to death
These fucks hate women and they aren't even trying to hide it anymore (link in comments)
Are antinatalists more likely to be vegan? As far as I can understand this beliefs stems from not wanting to cause unnecessary suffering. Vegans also don’t want to cause unnecessary suffering. So would it be more likely that an antinatalist is a vegan?
Are there ones that aren’t and how do they justify it?
Should we ban natalist trolles?Title
I…what?
it isn't their merit, but if it were, the social justice warriors would be authentic heroes
Natalist leftists be like
“the girl with the list”. if this is what keeps you from having kids than so be it…for context. this video has been going around for a little bit now. a women who made a list of reasons to not have a child. anytime someone starts to get baby fever they ask for “the girl with the list”.
Bangladeshi antinalitist.
Thank you guysI absolutely love this subreddit cause judging on the mentally unstable people here you guys are doing a public service by allowing your brain dead bloodline to die with you so from I give a great thank you, you guys are genuinely doing a good thing thank y’all 😎👌
I'm antinatalist for all the existencial reasons but one of the main ones is because I'm vain and I don't want to get stretch marks on my stomachI feel like a lot of women lie to themselves and pretend they don't miss their old and more beautiful body when they have kids.
And it's not just stretch marks, it's saggy tits, nothing fits them anymore, their self-esteem goes to shit. some women lose hair they can even lose teeth (medically proven). And I know beauty fades but I want to preserve it as long as I can. Also, Fun fact the majority of boobjobs and lipo are done by mothers.
Late Stage Natalism
I want to have many children :DI am very happy and I want to have many happy children as well.
I love my parents for having me, they're my favorite people in the world and I'm happy to be their greatest source of joy in their lives.
I Am RIDICULOUSLY Jealous Of Those Who Do Not Exist.Probably doesn't belong here but at this point I don't care and just want to vent-
My eggs that are currently un-fertilized, just sitting in my uterus and most likely will be sitting in the void for all of eternity are insanely lucky and I WISH I was one of them right now.
Hell, I wish I was one of the eggs that are currently sitting in my own mother's uterus, or even as morbid as this is, wish I was the aborted baby that my mom had before me at 16, she then proceeded after not learning the first time to have me at 17.
Growing up she was rarely at the house, always going out and partying evey god damn second she could take the chance to, barely cooked so I had to depend on my grandparents or even myself to make something decent to feed myself, and sometimes lashed out at me for no absolute reason.
Then she proceeded to have my sister, who now currently suffers the same exact fate. Hell, even AFTER she gave birth to my sister, 2 weeks later she went out partying AGAIN and somehow almost went BLIND so she had to go to the hospital.
My father is just as bad, because right now he is not physically, mentally and emotionally here for me (or my 2 other sisters, we all don't share the same mother) when I need him to be because he is serving time.
I am able to talk to him on the phone and sometimes through text, but that is not enough, and I fear that even when he comes home that it won't be enough for me.
The void that I currently feel in my heart because of my parents, has always been there since I was 13-14, I just felt like I had parents, but it was only financially.
I wish parents realized that providing basic necessities for a kid is NOT ENOUGH. And they ALWAYS use that argument against kids- "We put a roof over your head, buy you clothes, food, water, and money." Like no shit, you're SUPPOSED to do that.
But you need to be there for them MENTALLY and most definitely EMOTIONALLY. DO NOT HAVE KIDS IF YOU CANNOT PROVIDE THAT FOR THEM.
I feel like I have so much more to say but this is all I have right now, and i'm currently typing all of this in French class trying not to cry about it.
TLDR: I just wish I was never born and was still in the void because I hate my existence almost every single day thanks to my parents fucking and being idiots not using protection.
I want to have many children :DI am very happy and I want to have many happy children as well.
I love my parents for having me, they're my favorite people in the world and I'm happy to be their greatest source of joy in their lives.
O Me! O Life!*Oh me! Oh life! of the questions of these recurring,*
*Of the endless trains of the faithless, of cities fill’d with the foolish,*
*Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless?)*
*Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the struggle ever renew’d,*
*Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me,*
*Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me intertwined,*
*The question, O me! so sad, recurring—What good amid these, O me, O life?*
*Answer.*
*That you are here—that life exists and identity,*
*That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.*
\- Walter Hartwell White
This just pisses me off. Why would you even bother having children if neither of you are ever home to care for them???
Analyzing Asexuality And Antinatalism From The Evolutionary PerspectiveHello everyone. I hope you are doing well. I just created a blog post exploring the reasons it is possible to have asexual humans and humas who refuse to have offspring from the lens of the theory of evolution and genetics, or at least my current knowledge and grasp of those domains. I'd like to know what you think about it and if you have any comments. Thank you.
[https://dhruved2004.wixsite.com/arcturus/post/social-connection-sex-education-and-the-significance-of-sexual-desires-or-lack-thereof](https://dhruved2004.wixsite.com/arcturus/post/social-connection-sex-education-and-the-significance-of-sexual-desires-or-lack-thereof)
Why do you believe having children is morally wrong when we’re born to reproduce?I’ve looked around the sub and can’t find any info in why you guys believe in what you do, so I’m just curious.
I’ve been thinking recently that having children in this day and age wouldn’t be very fair, just for the fact that our society is getting worse.
But yeah, I’m interested to hearing your responses!
NOT HAVING CHILDREN IS NOT SELFISH!Whenever I say to people that I don't want to have kids, the most common response is that I will change my mind in the future or I must have kids whether I like it or not. I get frustrated when I hear these types of responses.
Never say to a person that they must have kids because it will cause pain to the unborn when they enter this world.
It is not guaranteed that a person will change their mind about not having kids. It is so frustrating that people keep on pushing others to have children.
I hate people saying that not having children is selfish because It is **more selfish** to bring a child into this harsh world and not raise them correctly. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the number of adults that experienced at least one type of childhood trauma is almost 61%. It just shows the number of parents unable to raise a child correctly.
Never listen to people who tell you to have kids, and never listen to people that give you the "you will change your mind" argument because you are doing a selfless act by not letting kids enter this harsh and unfair world, especially in this era where humanity has gotten even more irrational.
Do you guys want the human race to extinct?As i‘m not really invested in antinatalism I only know the basic information about it. I get that you don’t want any children at all but is your goal the complete extinction of humankind or is it just about yourself not having kids?
My school councelor is indoctrinating me into beliving the world is a perfect place. What do i do?.
Antinatalism leads to an empty universeI've never thought it about it until I read a comment in one of the previous threads.
If every living being were "intelligent" and were to practice antinatalism to protect their own offspring from suffering, we would have no life on Earth.
The one thing that made Earth special- life, would cease to exist, and what we would end up getting instead is a lifeless planet, which is indeed pretty sad.
So, while antinatalism sounds good in theory, in practicality, it destroys the very essence of what makes Earth special.
Are you struggling with this?So I'm working in a place where pretty much everyone has a child/children. A lot of the things I hear throughout the day just leave dumbfounded.
Now I've been able to somewhat tolerate it until recently. For a while now I have really started to feel overwhelmed about spending most of my days in the middle of these people who live in this totally different reality and to me they are just bad people. The fact that they have given birth to someone without their consent is one thing, but the fact that these people are always complaining about something and asking for understanding is something that I can't comprehend.
The main point is HOW do these people who are so bitter and tired all the time live with the fact that their children will go through these same things just like them? I don't even know which option is worse: Them not realizing what they do to others(their children) or that they know but just don't simply care.
And yes I'm considering quitting, I just have to take care of couple things first. But I'm also scared that I will never be able to work with people who are parents, because I just feel uneasy around them knowing what they have done, and It's effecting my ability and willingness to work with them. With some things you can just be a professional about it, but feeling so strongly about this makes it so hard.
Antinatalist Ask Me Anything
100 reasons to live
Natalists accidentally writing a list of reasons not to have kids
telling people who can't afford to take care of kids not to have them is eugenics"So what, only rich people should be able to have kids? "/s
I'm pretty sure we have all seen this argument before. Accusing something of being eugenics is one step away from everyone's favorite Internet argument gotcha, accusing your opponent of being Hitler/a Nazi. And honestly, it's ridiculous. People place someone's right to have a child over that child's right not to suffer, to not live a life of pain. If we took this ideology to the extreme, there would be no CPS, no laws against child abuse. People could hurt, mistreat and neglect their children to their heart's content, because it's more important that the adult keep their children (which of course is their God-given right in the first place! /S) than it is to protect children from a horrible fate. And yes, I do think knowingly, purposefully having a child that you are aware you do not have the resources to properly care for is a form of neglect, and extremely immoral. Btw, I am not counting people who do not have any other options, like so many in today's world where abortions are illegal, or those who face hardships after having a child that they could not have predicted in this condemnation.
The Ironic Hypocrisy of 99% of PostsHilariously ironic analogy - if you post all the eugenicist, classist, ableist nonsense in this sub all the time, have you read Better Never To Have Been by David Benetar?
No?
Well there’s another specific group of obnoxious assholes to whom you are functionally identical - Fundamentalist Christian Nationalists!
They also haven’t read the book which contains the ideology on which they base their own ideological positions - and they too make aggressive, pseudo-moralizing, holier-than-thou proclamations about how everyone else is morally inferior to them, regularly posting low-effort memes and unconsidered takes on problems as old as humans themselves and then smugly declare themselves the smart ones for having been an asshole about it.
They too hide their disdain for the poor, the disabled, the marginalised and the uneducated under the guise of “wanting what’s best for them” but really it’s a thin veil under which they use discriminatory language and hold openly prejudiced opinions towards the people they *claim* to want to help, but really just want to be feel better than.
They too base their personalities off ideas they never took the time to understand and then loudly proclaim their moral superiority *whilst demonstrating that they are not only morally repugnant but also not very smart for not being able to see it* while they tell you that *you’re* the dumb one for not jumping on the bandwagon of hate with them.
Literally every one of these posts is invalidated *by the book from which the idea is derived* - Benetar explains *why* AN isn’t about discrimination or hatred, it isn’t about feeling superior or blaming people for the situations they find themselves in, as so, so many of these posts are.
IF YOU HAVEN’T READ THE BOOK YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE SUBJECT MATTER.
In the same way Christians cannot claim to love and know God without reading their holy book, you cannot claim to know or understand AN if you haven’t read the founding text.
And if you’re on here posting pictures of disabled children or genetic disorders crowing about how immoral it is, *you don’t understand AN at all*, you’re an edgy teen whose only intention is anger at the world, and making it a worse place than it already is.
Go back to the nihilism sub and post your discriminatory memes there.
Edit: no one can even form a coherent argument to defend the idea that this sub should be a repository for your bigotry.
The best anyone can come up with is to deny the fundamental tenets of AN whilst still claiming to be one.
And it’s not a “no true Scotsman” fallacy because *the point of that analogy is there is NO SUCH THING as a “true” Scotsman* - because Scottish is a *nationality*, not an ideology.
Ideologies can indeed have strict requirements to adhere to them - in fact, that is *all they do*. They don’t do anything else.
If you do not meet the requirements, you are not the thing. People who do not practice religion are not religious, people who do not practice or understand science are not scientists, people who claim to be “left” but hate the poor and the disabled are not actually left.
Words do not simply mean what you want them to mean, they have existing definitions which exist independently of your desire to hold the label.
Either learn what they mean or stop using them - don’t try to argue they mean whatever you choose - they do not.
I know is a Spanish post, but I hear this almost all the time
what a shitty situationWell, my fiance's friend from elementary just moved abroad with her boyfriend (it's about 1k kilometers from our country). We've been recently invited to meet her in her new house, but here's the problem.
Today my fiance told me she's pregnant and got her delivery date. She's not even 19. And she wants to keep the child, which for me is of course fucking ignorant and selfish.
I don't want to come to house and get into any conversation with her, I also don't want to stay home alone for about 3 weeks.
What should I do man?
what a shitty situationWell, my fiance's friend from elementary just moved abroad with her boyfriend (it's about 1k kilometers from our country). We've been recently invited to meet her in her new house, but here's the problem.
Today my fiance told me she's pregnant and got her delivery date. She's not even 19. And she wants to keep the child, which for me is of course fucking ignorant and selfish.
I don't want to come to house and get into any conversation with her, I also don't want to stay home alone for about 3 weeks.
What should I do man?
Ok so I’ve been reading the content on this sub trying to understand what/where these opinions are developing….The best I can come up with is others posters hate life and want all mankind to fade away forever….
I can’t get on board with that…
I respect someone’s decision to not have kids themselves but to say it’s an immoral and selfish act to create a family is just too dark and hatful for me to grasp.
I’ve checked out a few peoples profiles trying to understand and it seems that most that post here are dedicated gamers that don’t really experience life outside the computer. I know it’s not all but the ones I looked at are
Admins please permanently ban me from this sub so it’s posts stop popping up in my feed and I end up offending the group with my opinions on the matter
I hope you all embrace and love your lives and I mean that sincerely
Saw this on fb. Imagine wanting everyone to have 4+ kids for the sole purpose of expanding a religion
Why do parents complain when the child loves them?It's all "I'm so touched out", my 2 year old child is "very attached", "always hanging off me", my 12 year old is always holding onto me, "why does she need to link arms it causes bruises", "my teens have so many emotional problems, I don't want to be a therapist".
"I can't ever go to the bathroom in peace, he wants me to play when I get in from work."
And then you ask why they had the child and it's always "oh the amazing stupendous love". Like what did you think love was? It's *emotional connection,* spirit to spirit - it's not meeting all your needs like a mini robot parent you gave birth to. It's not a light switch. Love goes both ways, and is a deep, intimate connection.
A typical r/antinatalism user's attempt at conversation with a stranger (jk, mostly)
Why do people hate children?I thought this may be the best place to ask. This question has been bugging me for a while. Please frame your responses in a respectful manner.
My Departure from this SubIs totally based on the fact that the ultimate goal of this group is to remove humanity and possibly other species from existence.
I thought it was about harm reduction through population shrinkage, something i can totally get behind, but now i realize that this is more of a philosophy than a practical solution. Also, the amount of you that just want sympathy and co-morbid community is a big turn-off.
Enjoy your isolation. You could have broke through to the masses, much like anti-work did, but you will fester in relative obscurity instead.
Oh Dear Parents, Fuck you."You will never be able to understand the pain I went thru, the countless nights of tears and thoughts of death, the endless mental abuse your actions have resulted in, the so many feelings of wanting to just sleep forever, this could have been avoided IF you decided to abort me."
This is what I told my female birthgiver, her response?
"You are talking nonsense"
And at that second, i realized the problem wasn't birthing or the act of being born, no, the problem is the world it's self, and the person that brings you into it, those seconds, i couldn't cry anymore , i forgot how to cry, i became a stoic, heartless and hate filled monster, and I've not regretted a second.
Why cry, when it never helped.
Why want to end it, when i know i am incapable.
Why care.
Why?
When they cried, i was to blame.
When they wanted to leave and "start anew" , i was to blame.
When i didn't care, i was called a demon.
Why?
And then it hit me...
Because if birth is the mistake, then they committed it, if they committed it, then they must pay, for everything, full price.
And dear breeders in question, i will not give up until I see you either 6 feet under or on the street, i will not smile or laugh until I can throw cold water on you in the middle of a winter night just so I can see you feel the same cold i felt everytime I was yelled, hit and abused.
And for that, oh, Satan, you will pay dearly.
Natalist here, I return the bingo
Parent of child with disabilities advises AGAINST having/more children
Bangladeshi antinalitist.
That's all.
Someone in my life likes kids but dislikes animals because there's no "return on investment"Which even a week later is still swimming in my head. What the hell is that supposed to mean? My kitty Loki lays with me when my fibromyalgia is flaring up and purrs. He's cute as a button and he's warm. Mind you this person also owns a dog friendly establishment.
Return on investment? I get that they're a business owner but maybe we don't birth people for what they can do for us, this isn't the great depression.
Maybe they mean taking care of them when they're old but it's a fact that it's better for everyone if a paid professional does that. It degrades the relationship between parent and child as they waste away and become resented for being a burden on another persons sleep and energy levels.
Anyway, I'll take the furry orange cutie that poops in a box over an overstimulated gremlin that smears poop on the walls.
Is it selfish for short people to have kids?I've thought about this and with short men in particular, they get a lot of harassment and bullying for their height. Would you say it's ever acceptable for two short people to reproduce? Or those with a debilitating disease that's passed off onto offspring or income etc.
What this sub has become
Well this is alarming, isn’t it?
First thing I saw this morning
I searched reddit for eugenicsAnd this sub was the top result
Harming other living beings for the sake of your crotch goblin nobody cares about
ahh yes because a women can't possibly be happy without children
Anti-natalist thoughts on suicide?I think we can all agree that suffering is the norm of life, rather than the exception, and because of all of this suffering, it would have been better not to exist in the first place. Why not simply end your existence now? What makes people (who fully ascribe to this philosophy) choose, every single day, to prolong the suffering?
DISCLAIMER: I do not condone suicide. Please only comment if you are comfortable discussing suicide in a theoretical/philosophical manner.
"I pay taxes toward their bad choices"
So I live in a city with a high homless population paired with alot of drug use and mental illness it's not uncommon to go out and see open drug use in public even in the higher end areas. This is in British Columbia too so healthcare is free ontop of that our government and police don't really do anything about it so long as they don't actually do anything to harm the public. People are always complaining about the drug use and theft on social media. This leads to people complaining about how they don't want their tax dollars going towards their healthcare and how it should go towards tougher enforcement.
Now my opinion on all of the above is irrelevant on this sub but I can't help but laugh and be angry because it makes me mad that I pay taxes towards public schools and day care and childbirth and really it's the opposite side of the same coin all of these parents complain there money goes towards paying for other people's choices. Meanwhile they find it acceptable that childless people pay for their life choices. I think parents should have to pay their kids education and pay for their childbirth due to it being their own choice. But what do I know.
What do you think of the Lindsay Clancy murders?Crimes like this are shocking and horrific. People are quick to blame mental illness, after all, only someone insane could even consider killing their own children. But when you look into filicides, there is almost always a background of abuse, trauma, and stress. People don't want to consider parents having intrusive thoughts or intent to harm their own children. But reading on Reddit, it's more common than we think.
No one wants to talk about the stress of having children and how that fits into mental health. We are shoved the idea that having children could only be a net positive, and that only someone despicable would do something to their own kids. Lindsay Clancy probably had a breaking point and snapped. We don't know.
Infanticide/filicide is not an oft-talked about topic, but it was quite common throughout history and animals do it too. It's just something that seems foreign to our modern mindsets.
Natalist here, I return the bingo
Using AI to Rebrand and Effectively Spread AN Messages that have Lasting Impact: A Semi-GuideI always felt the name "*Stop Having Kids*" sounded very off-putting, forceful, and condescending.
If we are ever going to get people to even listen to our message, we need to remove any and all barriers to entry, because, let's be honest, they already have enough reasons to not listen to us as it is.
Let's not give them any more sticks to add to the fire.
To this point, IMO, leading AN activitsm groups like *SHK* need a serious rebranding if they are ever going to have the impact they seek.
Even their black color scheme overtones in their signs, webpages and ads seem so dark and sinister - which, to their credit, is likely what they are going for since the topic at hand (life and suffering) *is* rather dark and sinister. I get it. I get it.
But ultimately it subconsciously prevents many people from *at least* hearing ANs out, let alone not getting triggered immediately once they do.
It is, after all, the same color choice as ISIS (which is where my brain subconsciously goes whenever I see a dominant black color scheme like this one. No one else? No? Okay, maybe just me).
Personally, if I were a natalist, I would roll my eyes, let out a loud *pffffffft,* and easily push away the command-centered, self-righteous tone that many of the SHK activists tend to embody. (Let me be clear, I am not saying *all*, I am just saying *many.* I've also heard many natalists echo the same sentiments).
I'm sure there are other AN groups out there that have a different style of branding than *SHK* that is perhaps very effective. But I'm using *SHK* as an example since they are the most visible in the public eye from what I have seen and have arguably the most influence.
None of it communicates to the viewer: "Hey, we hear you. But we have a different line of thinking, give us a few moments of your time to welcome in a different perspective."
I think back to when Abraham Lincoln famously said (paraphrasing) that in order to bring people over to a particular side or point of view, you need truthful and accurate information in a way that your audience can understand, but just as importantly, I believe he went on to say, they need to be able to *relate* to you.
In other words, you will never win people over unless you *meet them where they are* in terms of their beliefs and perspectives.
"I am just like you. I don't like suffering. I actually love kids. I just have a different idea about how to stop suffering."
It goes without saying, that AN is one of the single greatest and most divisive philosophies for humans to wrap their heads around, since it requires an ugly and hard look at your own egoic desires and selfish reasons for procreation.
Conversations can get divided and heated *very quickly*. We all know this.
We all also know "conversion" (for lack of a better term) is a near impossible task.
Which is why I feel a more effective message would center around having *less* children, and not so much *zero c*hildren, since I think more people can agree to and feel comfortable with that; though there is a case for both, of course.
In other words, you have to choose your battles and strategies wisely.
It's why I believe those of us who feel inspired to take action for change, as a collective, need to center more on the *love* and *anti-suffering e*lement of AN, especially with regards to first impressions.
..................
​
Enter the new AI Revolution.
​
I work in the AI space, so I know just how powerful and effective AI will be at growing businesses and movements at never before seen rates.
"This could *absolutely* apply to AN activist groups and messaging," I thought on my lunch break today.
So, during that break, I decided to ask Chat GPT to generate 21 names that would be great for an AN group.
Here's what it gave. They aren't all zingers, of course, but I thought some of them were actually quite good:
​
1. The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
2. Better to Never Have Been
3. Childfree Advocates for Rational Ethics (CARE)
4. No More Humans
5. No More Generations
6. The Pro-Childfree Alliance
7. The Abolition of Procreation Society
8. The Anti-Birth Movement
9. Generation Zero
10. The Life Avoidance League
11. The Child-Free Alliance
12. The Anti-Procreation Society
13. The Reproductive Rights Resistance
14. The Birth Strike Brigade
15. The Childless Liberation Front
16. The Procreation Prohibition Party
17. The Parental Abstinence Advocates
18. The Life Refusers League
19. The No Newborns Movement
20. The Nonprocreative Collective
21. The Wombless Warriors (this one gave me *goosebumps*)
​
I then asked it for 30 slogans:
​
Long form:
​
1. "Save the planet: don't procreate."
2. "The future is child-free."
3. "Better to not be born than to suffer."
4. "Antinatalism is pro-compassion."
5. "Be a hero: choose not to reproduce."
6. "Life is not a gift: it's a burden."
7. "Childlessness is a valid choice."
8. "We can't consent to life: antinatalism is the answer."
9. "Overpopulation is a threat to all life."
10. "Less life, more love: choose antinatalism."
​
Short form:
​
1. "Choose not to breed."
2. "Don't pass on the pain."
3. "No more new life."
4. "Anti-kids, pro-humanity."
5. "Life is not a blessing."
6. "The best future is child-free."
7. "Less life, less suffering."
8. "Think before you breed."
9. "Antinatalism: end the cycle."
10. "More life, more problems."
11. Love life, don't create it."
12. "No child, no harm."
13. "Life is not worth the risk."
14. "Not having children is heroic."
15. "Antinatalism: choose compassion."
16. "Pro-choice for all life."
17. "One less child can change the world."
18. "The best birth control is saying no to birth."
19. "Antinatalism: for a better tomorrow."
20. "Be the change: choose not to reproduce."
​
After these prompts, my mind started racing with the endless possibilities of how we can utilize artificial intelligence to gain ground in our fight to end suffering.
I am posting this because I want to encourage those that are either in the midst of organizing an AN activist group or those who already are in one, to seriously consider some of the above suggestions in your messaging.
Perhaps even more importantly, I want others to know that AI programs such as Chat GPT can be used to help hone your messaging to your audience. This can also be applied to vegan, climate change, and other anti-suffering groups you champion as well.
Now.....
...This is the point in the post where I show you how to accomplish this with *free a*nd *easily accessible* AI, like Chat GPT, that can make that challenge a little easier for us. I want us to start thinking about how we can utilize new resources to *really*... *actually*....*seriously* reach more people and get them to listen to us.
The mountain is and always has been very tall for us.
Not to mention, at times, really lonely, too. :(
But now we've got better hiking equipment.
And we need to spread the word about the sheer power of AI, and that now... *NOW!...* we *finally* can gain ground here.
I refuse to believe that we will always be seen as "fringe" thinkers who hate kids, think there is nothing good about life, are suicidal, and who need to "reframe" our mindset in order to qualm the depression and anxiety that life inevitably bitch slaps us with.
Why the fuck are *we* the outcasts??
That's such nonsensical *bullshit!...*and I *refuse* to accept that label.
That's why I'm making this semi-guide post.
Because I know that literally anyone - and I mean *ANYONE -* with an intenet connection and drive for change can use these no-skills-needed tools to easily spread the messaging of David Benatar, form online groups/landing pages and Discord channels for ANs and potential ANs to gather, and digitally spread both original and cited AN thought to the masses.
If you have a better way of accomplishing this, I am all ears. But for now, I think this is the best path forward. At the very least I hope that this post starts a discussion about effective change strategies.
We don't have to just exist in the confines and echo chambers of our beloved AN sub-reddits anymore.
I really mean it... *change is possible.*
Will antinatalism ever be adopted by the mainstream?
Probably fucking not.
Can we utilize artificial intelligence programs to potentially move from 1% of the general demographic to 10%, or even *25%* within our lifetimes?
With proper compassionate messaging and enough people utilizing AI, I *know* we can.
I hope some of you reading this will go online and search different free or cheap AI software that can help you accomplish this goal in an endless variety of ways.
With literally hundreds of new AI powered programs popping up weekly now, it can be hard to keep up with the flow.
Here is a link of an ongoing list of the majority of said programs that can help: [https://favird.com/l/ai-tools-and-applications](https://favird.com/l/ai-tools-and-applications).
I have no affiliation with any of these companies, obviously, since it's simply an ongoing list of the hundreds of apps and SaaS to choose from; but it is important to note that this list was made by an AI enthusiast... some dude I never met who is on the same mission as me to just help get the word out to the public that their voice can *finally be heard*, their vision *more clarified*, and their goals *exponentially* *more attainable* during this newly bestowed AI Revolution.
Many, like me some months ago, just needed to be shown what is possible and where to go for consolidated information.
Now that I've provided that, I hope some of you take it and run with it.
\------
Think about it.
You.
Yes, *you.*
You who made it this far reading my post, can spend a few hours playing around with some of the programs to quickly develop AN landing pages, marketing campaigns, emails to politicians, friends or influencers that you want to introduce to the AN cause.
Here is an example:
Their is software that you can use to extract the text from YouTube videos of anti-natalist influencers, and then you can use another software to consolidate and rephrase that text in any way you want, and then another to spread that information to the masses in a nice and palatable package... and in just *minutes.*
Not days or weeks. *Fucking, minutes!*
And more than likely there's going to be an AI service that comes out that will do all of those tasks at once.
Like, *holy shit!*
You see what I mean?
I guess what I am saying is a*nyone* from *any* socioeconomic background can spread the AN word.
There.
Are.
No.
More.
Excuses.
You can bounce around the AN subreddits and learn about it and make comments here and there and continue to get in heated arguments wiith friends, your parents, internet strangers and every other natalist out there... but what does that actually do? How much ground was actually gained?
More often than not both sides walk away with nothing to show for it except wasted time and a varying degree of bitter resentment that further entrenches them in their pre-argument ideologies.
OR
If you really care about the cause enough, you can use AI to help you *actually do something about it.*
Hell, at the very least Chat GPT can help you generate a variety of solid, Benatar-inspired responses to common natalist objections.
The possibilities are quite literally endless.
\----
Follow me here, as I hammer this down for the final time:
This is our single greatest shot at moving out of the fringe corners of the internet.
With enough people, as a collective, and fueled by the unlimited power of AI, we can get someone to rethink having their third child, take the adoption option more seriously, or, in some cases, even completely commit to not having children.
Once upon a time, I was one of those people.
I was well into my 30s, having teetered back and forth on the idea of a child-free life, when I randonly came across this sub one night.
I'll never forget the first time I read your posts, dissected your arguments, felt your shared pain, read your posted articles, and eventually understood your philosophy and cause deeply.
It only took about a month into reading everything in this sub that I made the sound and now obvious decision to fully commit to not having a child.
What if they're were a way to consolidate all of that information, package it in a compassionate way, and get it in front of as many people who, like former me, constantly go back and forth on the idea of procreation? Just that demographic alone would be worth all the effort.
All I needed was the right information coming from the right people.
Just like Abraham Lincoln said.
I am sure there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people that, like me, live in this child-free mindset limbo.
I know that if we can at least find a way to get them the right information and resources in a *non-aggressive* way that lacks even the faintest hint of a *self-righteously condescending* tone, we will help them make a decision that they can stand firm in, which will help them eliminate the hellscape that is existing in the mental ambiguity of such a major life decision.
Many of us have been there. We know that feeling all too well.
But it doesn't have to be that way for the many that suffer in this manner.
Ultimately, this is the moment where we can finally usher in change that can help prevent hundreds, then thousands, and then hundreds of thousands and even *millions* of people from being born and having to suffer through existence.
Then, when you count in the countless offspring that those people would have had, then....well, let's just say if Mother Earth had arms, she would give you one *ginormous* hug of gratitude.
And you...
....*YOU*....my dear reader of this long post, can be the much needed hero to Mother Earth and the yet to be.
​
Even as I type this out, I wonder if anyone will actually heed my advice and do something with this information.
I like to imagine that at least a few of you will, and that brings a smile to my face. :)
The thought gives me a selfish, quick rush of feel-good dopamine as I imagine another child who won't have to go through a years-long battle with cancer; another teenage girl who won't get raped and form severe PTSD that leads to a life plagued with an alphabet soup of mental disorders; the soldier who didn't have to become a POW in a war he didn't want to fight in to begin with; or the twice divorced middle-aged man with a bottle of whiskey in his belly and a gun in his mouth, wondering for the last time how, after living a life filled with money, status, "safety," material possessions, and even a family to love, still somehow left him so unbearably depressed that he is now about to do one of the bravest yet most tragic things that a human can do - remove himself from existence and thrust himself into the Great Unknown.
All because his mommy and daddy thought it would be so nice to have cute kids running around the house.
That's how powerful and unpredictable life and suffering is.
None of us can escape it.
But we don't have to escape that which doesn't exist.
Which is why I spend a good deal of my suffering-filled life to fight for non-existence.
And it is my sincere hope that some of you will join me in that quest.
\-------------------------------------
P.S.
There were *soooo* many Chat GPT suggestions above that I loved, and many more that it generated and I didn't post, but if I were to form an AN group, this is the combo I would choose:
*No More Humans*
One less child can change the world
​
\*\*\* Feel free to let me know which combo you would choose, or... *even better:* use Chat GPT on your own and post some new name/slogan combos in the comments. I'd love to see those! \*\*\*
​
\------------------------------------------
​
TL;DR: Use AI to rebrand and/or spread the AN message for most effective impact. Link in body of text for resources to help accomplish that. LFG!
I guess life is a debt we owe our parents
Is it selfish for short people to have kids?I've thought about this and with short men in particular, they get a lot of harassment and bullying for their height. Would you say it's ever acceptable for two short people to reproduce? Or those with a debilitating disease that's passed off onto offspring or income etc.
Senior citizen breedersHeard a story the other day about a couple who had a child where the mom is 48 and the dad is 62 when the baby was born, and they pretend like it's all rainbows and sunshine – a call for praise and celebration. The father's cop-out: "I won't be around much longer anyway." It's never about the child, pro-"lifers'
The worst thing one could do to their children is have them
Completely exceeds my expectations!
Is antinatalism an extreme form of "conditional natalism"? At what point does conditional natalism become unconditional antinatalism?By that I mean if hypothetically the antinatalist arguments and ethical concerns such as; guaranteed harm, impossibility of consent, and gambling, etc. weren't an issue, would it still be ethically wrong to procreate? Assuming you aren't childfree, would any of you want to reproduce in such a reality?
Is there a difference between an unconditional antinatalist and a conditional natalist if the conditions are impossible? Should a distinction be made, and does it matter if neither think it will ever be ethical to procreate?
Hope this makes sense.
I am the Insane BreederSo two years ago in some insane combination of hope and delusion I decided to have a baby. Even then I knew it was selfish but I told myself I would raise them to be true to themself and follow their passions. Most of the environmentalists I know have kids themselves and I just justified it some way or another. Meanwhile the war in Ukraine started, emissions soared back up to a new high, cost of living crises broke out around the world, and everything just generally went even more to shit. As soon as he was born I realized what an evil, cruel thing I had done to bring him into this evil, corrupted world. I just can’t believe what I have done. I discovered anti-natalism and VHEMT and Im so sad that I didnt find them before or even think to research more into the philosophy of natalism. I just feel so hopeless and it is even hard to take care of my son sometimes because I feel I have already doomed him. People tell me this is postpartum depression, but I know it is not. It is a very scary world we live in and I dont even know how to prepare him for what is to come.
Can we be “good vegans?”A vegan is a person who abstains from consuming animal products. A vegan makes this choice for a variety of reasons, ethical, financial, environmental etc. Some vegans think animal products are gross, some don’t. I’m sure most vegans think the world would be a better place if more people were vegans. Many would even consider consuming animal products if it were a much less common practice and there were more ethical ways to do it.
Antinatalists are the same, but replace “consuming animal products” with “having children”
However - if we want to encourage more people to be vegans, it’s not an effective strategy to go around finding the most disgusting examples of people eating meat and gratuitously shaming them. Or repeatedly yelling at meat eaters that what they are doing is disgusting, or worst of all finding examples of fat people and using fat shaming to justify veganism. (Sure plenty of vegans do these things, but it’s annoying, self righteous, and ineffective)
A good vegan catches more flies with honey than with vinegar. Ok maybe not honey in the case of a vegan, maybe agave syrup. A good vegan normalizes being vegan, cooks and shares yummy vegan food and recipes, advocates for more vegan options at restaurants and stores, brainstorms low-cost vegan options, supports vegetable farmers and local food systems. In other words, they proudly enjoy their lifestyle and make it seem appealing and accessible to others
Why can’t we be more like that too? Instead of finding the most despicable examples of shitty parents and putting them on blast to make ourselves feel better? Or - the most disgusting behavior I repeatedly see on this sub: shaming people with disabilities and poor people (parents and children) to justify antinatalism.
Can’t we just share our happy child-free or child-few lives and try to normalize and celebrate all the wonderful reasons to and impacts of having fewer or no children? We can make it normal, make it fun, keep it nice, and get more people to join us that way rather than being nasty judgmental jerks.
Pass the agave syrup please!
Just showing my appreciation for this subIf it wasn't for r/antinatalism, I would've thought I was condemned to stay alone and alienated forever because of my core values, and that people like me couldn't be found anywhere. And I won't lie, I do feel like that sometimes, because 1) it's nearly impossible for me to find an antinatalist irl, and 2) whenever I explain my beliefs to someone, the reactions I receive range from dirty looks and confused expressions to insults and people telling me I am a depressed extremist that makes no sense because "reproduction is the ultimate goal in life". But the fact that safe spaces like this exist helps me realize that I am not alone, that people with the same empathy as me are real, that with some luck I can find a friend who thinks the same as me. It's a comforting feeling. :)
An undeniable truth
It's funny how people who don't have to suffer consequences want to...
Soooooo…You guys are all just going to die with no offspring?
Edit: thanks for the honesty!
Antinatalism is not anti childrenGo to child free reddit sub or literally anywhere else like offmychest. I’ve seen too many “if you like kids get off this sub” like they don’t even know what antinatalist is they’re just spewing shit out their mouths and agreeing with each other. They completely changed the meaning of what this page is supposed to be about.
Kids do not consent to be alive. Kids rely solely on their environment growing up to teach them things. So if you’re in a comment section commenting about how dumb kids are, calling them slurs… you literally look and are acting…. Like a child. Like someone who didn’t learn emotional intelligence … which you’re supposed to learn as a kid.
You all are just calling yourselves out at this point. I don’t care if you don’t like kids or don’t like to be around them (it’s probably just because you relate to them a lil too much) but go talk about it somewhere else. No one cares. Private message each other slurs. At this point you probably already do. Unjoin this sub though on the way there :) you aren’t welcomed!
Debate A NatalistIs anyone available and interested in debating the topic of antinatalism (through VC, for my YouTube)? I favor the responsible spread of the human species as one of the several ways to reduce suffering and increase wellbeing worldwide. I’m specially interested in debating other vegans who think that veganism somehow entails being an antinatalist, but I’ll debate anyone who’s interested.
PS: I’m not interested in having text debates, so only respond to this if you’re interested in having a voice chat debate that will be recorded. Also, let’s please keep everything in good faith.
Oh Dear Parents, Fuck you."You will never be able to understand the pain I went thru, the countless nights of tears and thoughts of death, the endless mental abuse your actions have resulted in, the so many feelings of wanting to just sleep forever, this could have been avoided IF you decided to abort me."
This is what I told my female birthgiver, her response?
"You are talking nonsense"
And at that second, i realized the problem wasn't birthing or the act of being born, no, the problem is the world it's self, and the person that brings you into it, those seconds, i couldn't cry anymore , i forgot how to cry, i became a stoic, heartless and hate filled monster, and I've not regretted a second.
Why cry, when it never helped.
Why want to end it, when i know i am incapable.
Why care.
Why?
When they cried, i was to blame.
When they wanted to leave and "start anew" , i was to blame.
When i didn't care, i was called a demon.
Why?
And then it hit me...
Because if birth is the mistake, then they committed it, if they committed it, then they must pay, for everything, full price.
And dear breeders in question, i will not give up until I see you either 6 feet under or on the street, i will not smile or laugh until I can throw cold water on you in the middle of a winter night just so I can see you feel the same cold i felt everytime I was yelled, hit and abused.
And for that, oh, Satan, you will pay dearly.
Observation: mgtow and antinatalismi was around at the beginning of the mgtow "movement." i see you guys going the same way they did. your pain, trauma, frustration, whatever will make you repetitive and some of you will become more radical. what does a radical antinatalist look like? no fucking clue. some of you will off yourself because you will refuse to accept reality for what it is. antinatalism is the last taboo because procreation is the last religion.
i understand the antinatalist view, but i understand that it is not my duty to convince others of antinatlism. it makes you look like a lunatic zealot, walking the streets proselytizing. antinatlism is something you you discuss with like minded people, not the average person.
one more thing. the consent argument is "airtight," super reasonable. but you don't do everything that is reasonable. you procrastinate. you eat shitty food. procreation is the same thing. it is fucking hardwired. it can be argued that is the only thing we are here for. humans are a lucky, unlucky, miserable, wonderful misstep in evolution.
Why don't antinatalist allow a new life to enjoy the pleasures in life?Why only focus on pain, every new life will also have pleasures in life right.
If you were presented with a void to walk into that would effectively immediately and painlessly erase your existence, and it was your only chance to do so, would you take the opportunity?My former coworker and I fantasized about this very thing and our coworkers became concerned that we were suicidal but we just merely said no, we don’t want to kill our self’s. We just would 💯 take the opportunity to not exist anymore.
Mind you we are both in our mid 40s and our coworkers were primarily Gen Z’ers.
Edit: In this completely imaginary scenario, you would not be dying. Your existence would be completely erased meaning you would have never existed. No burdens or debts or grief left behind because there would be no memory or evidence that you were ever here.
(If this post goes against the guidelines of this sub please feel free to remove it but I thought it’d be an appropriate outlet for this discussion as we all aren’t too fond of the perpetual suffering of this unfortunate malady called life) ✌️
Making the earth into a transhumanist utopia paradise doesn't somehow mean natalism is immediately okayDeath would still exist even in the most beautiful of paradise. Just because we would be virtually immortal doesn't mean that we're also indestructible. Accidents will still happen, people will still die.
Giving birth to a child essentially means that you're subjecting them to the possibility that a freak accident could happen and end their life.
Just because you enjoy life doesn't give you the right to burden an innocent being with that. When you die, all your memories disappear, all your achievements are gone, you won't even know that you were ever alive to begin with. You shouldn't decide for others that they will somehow be okay with that fact.
Furthermore, current science hints to the fact that empty individualism is correct. That human consciousness is ultimately emphereal and transient. Our very being is just chemicals in our brains. Neurons that are firing on and off in succession. And once you stop that flow of neural activity, that specific instance of a person forever ceases to exist. Why impose such a condition on a child?
And before someone says "Oh, we might be able to reverse entropy or we might be able to use quantum technology to bring back someone's exact same consciousness." The problem with that notion is that there's literally no guarantee that will ever be accomplished. This universe doesn't belong to us. The universe doesn't exist of our own free will. The laws of physics don't care about what we what. The idea of circumventing the laws of physics presupposes that there's some sort of metaphysical backdoor that exists in the first place. We shouldn't continue having children just based on the optimism that there's a " chance" we can conquer the very nature of time and space.
As long as entropy and empty individualism exists, antinatalism will always be valid.
I'm fuming. Would like to start off by saying my mum is a wonderful woman and this is in no way against her. Today I heard my mum complaining about how difficult her life is with 4 kids and no helpers I asked her why she decided to birth 4 kids consciously and willingly when she knew she can't handle it mentally and physically as a middle class family with tight money problems. She said it was Allah's (gods) WILL and it was not her choice. Then I said you had sex by your choice with the intent of having babies that will most likely amount to nothing, work 9-5 jobs, contribute to climate change and fucking up the environment, be depressed and die most likely because of not being able to support themselves and have no one beside them on their death bed. She replied said her children will definitely be special. Here I am, a former gifted kid that needs anti depressants to function and can't see her distant family because of the war in her country, and that lives on noodles and ice cubes. I'm only a kid and waiting to be a slave to the 9-5 lifestyle. Edit- I do not hate my mum and love her, just don't agree with her.
It’s funny because it’s true.
I’m new here… helpI’m not sure how I stumbled upon this group… but here I am. I guess I didn’t really know that a group like this existed? Can someone explain to me why it’s morally wrong to have children? Won’t the entire human race die off? Isn’t having children natural?
No judgment just totally new information to me and I would love to know more about this
Thanks!
Page from a book written by an adult psychologist...like it never occured to him before?
Would I be considered Anti-Natalist?First off, hope you guys are having a good day. I'm pretty new to this sub reddit but I'm unsure if my views would be counted as Anti-Natalist. So I wouldn't want to bring any children into this world myself as I wouldn't want them experiencing any of the hardships this world has brought upon us such as global warming or war. But at the same time I wouldn't discourage others from having kids if they wanted too (Although i would tell them to reconsider it due to the factors I mentioned). Would this make an Anti-Natalist or something else? Thanks for your help.
zoom meeting?Hello everyone
I was wondering if you are all interested in doing a group zoom meeting in which we can discuss different aspects of antinatalism and share our experiences.
Arrow up if you are in.
An honorable death.I just read a comment on this sub:
"We are going to see a wave of mass suicides in the near future, millions at a time, as more and more people reach retirement age with no one to support them.
The only retirement left is a warm gun. Soon all we will know is death. It'll be the only friend we have remaining."
Let's be honest, it is clear that any sane person won't have biological children. From now, the only questions and debates should be about us, people from 18 - 58 of age who are brought to this beautiful planet and horrible society (system). It is bad from USA to China and then to Japan again.
Going back to his comment, can you blame those people that he thinks of? It gives me great comfort that I am in late twenties and that I have gone through so much bad, while I might have a few solid decades. After that, once it's nothing but unpleasant living, I can always opt out of this raw deal.
When the time comes, there is that thing that Americans are known for possessing and all it takes is a moment of bravery to end misery. Then, back to the universe in a form better than we have now, for sure. Until then, live in a moment, enjoy every breath and cup of a warm or ice tea. Drink a beer, eat your favorite meal, live on your own terms. It's not easy, but it's all we got. Until we don't. Have a nice day
Soon...
Why don't antinatalist allow a new life to enjoy the pleasures in life?Why only focus on pain, every new life will also have pleasures in life right.
the world is cruel, but my kids give me meaningMaybe kids are (besides the biological urge to procreate) just coping mechanisms, to get out any meaning of life.
I told one former friend i really like (she was smart about life, well educated women with an alcoholic mom) that life is hard, as i went myself trough a lot of struggle. She totally agreed. She has been already pregnant at this time and said that kids are their meaning now and she hopes they will have it better. The funny thing is, my mum said the same about my sister and me. I think grown adults are just big, hurt, abused children.
Why procreate when suffering is inevitable. I believe that it must be a very transforming expierence to become a father/mum, but you can't deny the fact that this person will expierence struggle and will die someday.
Why are the breeders here?The title is simple enough. I don't go anywhere near breeder spaces. What do they want besides to shit on us for our choice? There are plenty of other options for breeders. Why are the breeders here?
Why do people have kids that aren’t expected to live long or have a good quality of life?It makes me mad when I read stories about people giving birth to babies with terminal illnesses. “We’re not going to give up on our baby, God has a plan.” I just think it’s incredibly cruel to not abort when you know your kid is going to immensely suffer in the short time it’s going to be alive.
Had a chat with an online friend about his new babyI'd gone a bit silent and he dropped me a message to check up on me. Very kind of him. After some back and forth I asked him how the new baby was doing.
And he just said that he wishes he could go back to his old life, before the baby. Everyone else around him is just so in love with this kid yet he's just full of regret. I feel kinda sad, but it was their choice to have a child and yet he's somehow surprised that life changes and that you're no longer you're own person. Probably one for r/regretfulparents but it just reinforced my views that THIS exact reason is why I'm never having kids. And I don't know why he's shocked this has happened.
I like my life, doing things on my own terms. Buy a new guitar, go on holiday with no special dispensations. Play video games til 2am. The hell would I want to give that up.
All of the above (and below)
People say non-existence "deprives" potential children of life but isn't being brought into existence in the first place the start of all deprivation in life?Being given life makes it possible to feel being deprived in the first place. So why do people insist that I am depriving potential children even after I've explained? I don't think it's that hard to understand. When we die we'll go back to being non-existent anyway so what difference would it make for the child if they skipped life? No difference, like they never existed in the first place.
And I can't get my head around why people care so much to argue. My children are my business and I don't want to make any. Granted, my children could enjoy life but they could also hate it. I think it would be wrong for me to gamble, no one chooses to be born after all.
"No one chooses to be born." Another thing people argue over... it's a little frustrating because I'm not telling anyone what to do. Just trying to help people understand my choice.
found this on r/sbubby
we should start a "No New Children Until All Existing Children Have Been Adopted" campaignBillboards, ads, etc. How does one go about bankrolling that sort of thing?
Question about antinatalismI just wanted to know if this is serious and people think its morally wrong to have children? Because to me it seems more neutral to have kids
I think a good decent amount of antinatalists have a deep down subconscious or very to the forefront disdain for the carnal desperate needs and desires that come with being human and wouldn't dare voluntarily have someone else outside of themselves have to go through those same exact thingsI can only speak for myself but I also think a good number of other antinatalists feel the same way about having the involuntary needs and desires(both physical and emotional) that comes with being human by default. Having to eat in a very consistent manner all the time and if u don't then the only other option is feeling the sensation of starvation which definitely doesn't feel good or isn't ideal. Having the need and wanting to be acknowledged or accepted by others in a social sense, having the urge to be desired and feel affection from someone of the opposite gender and just having to deal with certain people with certain characteristics that are just a straight up PAIN IN THE ASS even when u fully consciously try to avoid any kinda problems or conflict with people. Those are just a couple examples cause there's too many to list but yea I think that's the difference between a good number of antinatalists and people who think reproducing is some kinda great reasonable thing to do for someone outside of themselves for some reason. I'm personally annoyed by it at certain times and have a disdain for it at times but I'm pretty rational and reasonable enough to not be a straight up ass about it. I think a good number of antinanatalists can identity with this.
My anti-natalist views are making me miserable.I'm not sure what the point of me making this post is. I guess maybe to see if there is anyone else out there who feels like this?
I completely agree with the anti-natalist perspective and the more I think about it, the angrier I feel at the fact that I'm alive. I didn't ask to be born. If I'd have had the choice, I would've absolutely have chosen not to be brought into this world. But I'm here now. Which means I have to live this unfulfilling, miserable life of working to survive. And don't get me wrong, I like my job, but I just feel like there should be more to life than spending my one lifetime on this earth working to be able to afford to live. And there isn't a solution, because in the capitalist society I live in, if I speak about this to anyone I'm just told "that's life". In that case, I wish I hadn't been born to experience "life". And then I think about the state of the world and all the horrible things going on like climate change and poverty and inequality and corruption and it makes me feel sick. And I feel like now I'm aware of all of this, I can never regain the happiness that came with being ignorant to it all. I just wish to never have been created so that I wouldn't have to engage or be aware of any of this. I can't even kill myself because I'm too scared of death.
Sorry - I know this has been just a stream of consciousness but I just need to know that I'm not the only person that feels like this. And if there is anyone out there who understands, how do you cope?
EDIT: Wow, I really didn't expect to have so many people commenting on this. I really do appreciate every single comment left and even just knowing that it's not abnormal to feel this way gives me a lot of comfort. I feel like it can be hard to talk about this because anti-natalism is so far away from mainstream that whenever I bring up anything of the sort it quickly gets shut down. I'm glad we have this space where we can understand each other.
A lot of people have messaged me concerned for my wellbeing. I just want to reassure those people that I'm okay. Yes, I am diagnosed with mental health issues but I'm getting help for those (and I've had them long before I found out about anti-natalism!), and I'm not a risk to myself as I don't want to bring more suffering into the world by hurting the people around me.
I've read everyone's comments and I'm definitely going to try focusing more on finding meaning and joy in the mundane. I guess I need to acknowledge that I'm here now, and make the most out of a crappy situation instead of dwelling on the negatives so much. Thank you to everyone who has commented.
Ok ANs, are you religious?This sub baffles me. I joined it because I believe in it, but each day, this group turns me off to being here. So, to help me better understand you, I'm asking you this question.
Who will take care of us when we’re old?Serious question, truly not trying to antagonize as I don’t think anyone who doesn’t want kids should have them.
But, if you’re completely anti-birth for everyone (not just yourself), is the expectation that the human race will just die out? In that case, are you worried that your old age will be miserable because there will be no new doctors or caretakers to help? Everyone will just be old and die painfully?
Really trying to understand what this is all about. Please don’t come at me l.
Is there a subreddit that's the opposite of r/childfree or r/antinatalism or r/regretfulparent?Antinatalism and childfree lifestyle is natural to me, it just makes sense in every way. However, I do try to go out of my way to hear the opposing views in an effort to make sure I'm not stuck in an echo-chember that I wasn't unaware of.
Is there a subreddit where people share, honestly, the joys of parenthood and how wonderful it is, and how they're glad to be a parent?
Got my bumper stickers and my activism cards!
Pro-Natalism and Hedonism/ Life is a gift mentality due to hedonism?Do Natalists say life is a gift, because they are essentially hedonists? And if so, would not that be particularly harmful as their children will most likely outlive them and they should think about the future and not just about minor hedonistic pleasures?
Natalist 'logic'Well? looks like tehy purposefully refuse to see the truth. Since when abcence of joy is bad when there is no capacity to be deprived?
Can someone please give me some productive lines of communication as to what this group is about?Inquiring minds over here…..
Antinatalism WELCOMES parents!We need a serious purge of this sub. People are starting to treat it like the ugly sister of r/childfree and while they often overlap, they have fundamentally different principles
You can have adoptive children. You can have 10 of them if you want and you'll be the prime example of what an antinatalist is - a person that makes an informed decision not to reproduce
And even people with biological children who had them before becoming antinatalists should find their place here. Of course, deciding to have children AT THE SAME TIME as being antinatalist would be hypocritical. But sometimes it's too late and a parent of one child is better than a parent of two if you know what I mean
This is NOT a childfree sub
If the world is too terrible to bring new people into it, why are you still posting here?I've seen this pattern a lot on this sub and I still haven't gotten a satisfactory explanation of this attitude. Surely if not having kids is an act of mercy upon the potential child, wouldn't it be an act of mercy upon yourself to just quit living? And don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of you living on, but it just follows from that argument that life isn't worth living, so why? Are you a hypocrite who won't apply the same standard to yourself? Are you too much of a coward? Do you hate yourself and think you deserve it? Are you just lying to make yourself feel better because you're insecure about your antinatalist convictions? What is it?
Obligatory disclaimer that it's your business whether you want to have kids or not, I just find this justification to be very weak.
Which side are you on?
To anyone who says birthing a child is immoral because they can't consent to being born:they can't consent to being aborted either
​
\-I'm pro choice, but I think it's just a stupid argument
What even is this page?The description says you think it’s morally wrong to have children? You want humanity to just die out?
Is this what Republicans want to return to? Life Before Roe v Wade:
Is this what Republicans want to return to? Life Before Roe v Wade:
My mother writing beautifully about what they don’t tell expecting parents‘What didn’t they tell me at ante natal class?
They didn’t tell me I was about to hand my whole life over to fate, to the capricious gods of good and bad luck because I was about to give birth to someone that I loved more than myself, more than I could imagine, but someone I couldn’t protect from the vicissitudes of life, from the cruelty of other children, from unkind adults and from the world.
They didn’t tell me that, like any parent, I was forever hitching my peace of mind to that of another.
They didn’t tell me I was now a hostage to fortune.
They didn’t tell me that.’
"Inmendham's sabotage"
"Inmendham's sabotage"
im never going to have children but i feel lik giving up on antinatalismIt's not that i dont find it logical or meaningful anymore, it just doesnt seem feasible. it goes completely against human nature, and absolutely will never ever be popular opinion. humans would have to grow an immense amount of empathy to override their ego's, and how is that ever going to be achieved in a world where being gay is still against the law in many countries. religion is rife in most countries and theres 1000's of years of culture and religion that we'd have to convince the entire human populace should be eliminated. i cant bring it up and vent any of my beliefs to friends or family because im extremely stigmatised. the last time i brought it up in school a white girl accused me ( a brown girl ) of being a eugenicist and then tried to say that antinatalism has its roots in the apartheid because its creator was from south africa. its also very painful to hold these beliefs, to choose to not be ignorant to the horrors of existence, and then go on being silent, knowing the only people who will understand me are those on the internet.
being an antinatalist is legitimately soul destroying and i think im going to choose to be ignorant because i cant take the emotional toll anymore.
pronatalists think we hate their kidsor their “future kids.”
Which is why they get so weirdly defensive over our stance in this sub.
I don’t think they realize that most of us don’t hate children—we FEEL SORRY for children.
My go-to explanation is this. There are 8 billion people in the world. Of that 8 billion, I would be willing to estimate 1 billion live happy lives where they suffer the minimal amount. You know—the kind of suffering we ALL have to experience at one point (grief from the death of loved ones, anxious uncertainty about the future, and then ultimately your own death, however painful or scary that might be). So other than those three inevitable feelings, those 1 billion people (and I’m being SO generous with that number) never experience suffering in any other way.
That still leaves 7/8 of the population that will be born into poverty, will be born with mental health issues, will be born dreadfully unlucky, will be born in developing countries, will be born to be cogs in the soul crushing machine.
The antinatalist philosophy is a probability game. It is 7 times more likely that you will give birth to someone who will suffer greatly, and therefore merciful to simply not give birth.
That doesn’t mean I hate the children who have already been born, only that when I see eight of them at one time, statistically speaking, seven of them will suffer a lot and one of them will suffer a little. I feel bad for all eight regardless, because technically they didn’t have to suffer at all.
But then I realize that non-existence is so foreign to people that they think it’s the same as dying, so instead of listening to understand, they think I’m advocating for baby killing.
This sub has an eugenics problem.Antinatalism isn't eugenics but some of y'all seemingly haven't realized. There's way too many people saying that the poor or people with disabilities should be the first ones to stop reproducing. Too many "I bet this person wishes they'd never been born" when specifically seeing someone with a disability.
I only exist because two narcissists craved authority & power over another human beingDue to actions of two narcissists, I have to slave off to the system for the rest of my life, as well as deal with whatever other bullshit that comes my way. If it isn't authority and power, then it's some other selfish reason they chose to have me. Or maybe they just didn't want to put on a condom.
Thanks mom and dad
Why do “pro-lifers” make such bad arguments?Every argument against abortion is a false equivalency, strawman, or making up their own word definitions.
Why do they compare never being born in the first place to actually being here and being killed or otherwise dying?
Even if you argue from their perspective in that the unborn is a person you will still come to the conclusion of pro-choice when you think logically.
A: a potential person not even born yet literally inside somebody’s body doesn’t get rights over the actual person already here or B: even if it were a person she still has every right to get rid of it because it’s inside her body.
It’s also disturbing how instead of wanting children to be born wanted, loved, and to parents that can afford it or never born to begin with they see children as a punishment for having sex.
They claim to be pro child, but the things they believe in harm actual children
“How can it be selfish not to bring something into the world that doesn’t exist on any level?” After pondering in this, I realized, What if some people actually believe that babies exist in some way before being incarnated here. Do you believe that babies exist on some level before conception?So I recently posted a quote by Ricky Gervais that stated, “It’s a stupid thing to say, isn’t it? How can not having children be selfish? How can it be selfish to not bring something into the world that doesn’t exist on any level? It’s not like there’s a big line or cage of unborn fetuses going: ‘We want to be born’. It doesn’t make any sense.” -Ricky Gervais
This seemed to resonate with many of you judging by the agreements of upvotes. I began to contemplate on this quote and really wondered which beliefs other have on this subject. I know some people believe in re-incarnation, and some believe in powers and energy of different types.
I really want to see where everyone sits on this subject, so I made a poll. Please give it a vote and add a comment. I would love to discuss this further.
For the sake of this poll, I’m going to keep it very simple, as YES, NO, MAYBE, or OTHER answer choices. It should really be a YES or NO answer, but I’m trying to keep it as fair as possible.
Average Natalist
a message for you guys
What historical or mythical figures do you reckon could have been anti-natalists?
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
We’ve heard you. We’ve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone — for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed — but we trust that the changes we’re implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, we’ve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency — an explicit philosophy, even — to “let the downvotes do their thing” by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
• Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules — regardless of whether we wish they are — remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the sub’s continued existence here on Reddit.
• Further to this we have added a new rule: “Content should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.” This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isn’t explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isn’t obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
– Before explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.”
– After explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I don’t think it’s inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates won’t necessarily relieve them of moral burden.”
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (we’re one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isn’t the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you haven’t a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try ‘round. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, I’m antinastylist. I’ve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20’s. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. I’m pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation – in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different “brand” of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (無生殖協会/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term “antinatalism,” but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isn’t or shouldn’t be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We haven’t seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
what are yalls opinion on surrogacy?honestly, it’s hard times out there and any way you can make money is fine with me. if they didn’t pick you for a surrogate they would’ve picked someone else. im not mad at the surrogate tbh
What's the Age Range of this Group?Just wondering
does anyone on this sub actually have children?as the title reads, i would love to hear from anyone from this sub who are/used to be strongly antinatalist but ended up having children. You could have been antinatalist all along but still had children, or realised youre antinatalist after having children.
i would love to ask: did you succumb to pressure to have kids? do you regret having children? what made you realise you are antinatalist if you realised it after having children? what made you end up having kids?
although this question excludes having kids via adoption, i would love you hear your experiences as well.
english is not my first language so i apologise if there are any bad language use.
What historical or mythical figures do you reckon could have been anti-natalists?
Is this sub religious at all?I'm not an outsider, this is a curiosity question. I don't think religion should have anything to do with AN, but I am but one in a sea of many. My goal with this poll is to expand my understanding of the world.
Quality AN content has barely any chance of reaching the frontpage anymore, everything gets drowned out by childfree memes.I noticed that we've reached a point where there is pretty much only one specific type of content that gets to the frontpage: Outrage posts about parents or their disabled children and to a lesser extent childfree memes.
Those posts consistently receive hundreds of upvotes (just browse through the [top posts](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/top/) of this month for example), while higher effort AN posts such as discussions, new papers or AN projects stay below hundred upvotes and get drowned out quickly.
Browsing by [/new](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/new/) paints the same picture: Natalists posts stay at 0 (downvoted), everything else hovers somewhere under 100 upvotes but as soon as it is a picture of a disabled child, BAM, hundreds of upvotes.
If my interest were in karma farming I am quite sure I could play this sub like a fiddle. Unfortunately my interest however is discussing and promoting antinatalism instead, something this sub is not suitable at all for anymore as a result.
Now, one might say, if that is the content people vote for everything is working fine, however I certainly find it odd if the main antinatalism subreddit is not the best place to post AN content anymore. Furthermore this sub is still the place that gets noticed accross reddit as the "face of antinatalism" (most don't even know it is a philosophy outside of reddit) and some of the content that gets posted here certainly hurts the reputation of antinatalsim as a whole.
I just saw the new mod announcement and am glad that something is being done, however I don't think the small policy changes discussed in there will be enough. It seems the overpowering by memes and low effort content is something many subs have faced when gaining popularity. In quite a few other subs I frequent this has lead to meme or picture posts being restricted to certain days of the week only for example. Maybe that could be an option here as well.
(Note: I wrote this before I saw the new mod post, but still decided to post it since the observations might still be relevant. In any case hope some changes happen and thanks as well as good luck to the new mods!)
Ban misanthropic antinatalism posts in this subCreate a separate sub for misanthropic antinatalism, child haters, and climate birth strikers.if we want to popularize antinatalism we should only focus on Philanthropic Antinatalism
There is a separate sub for childfree people. Antinatalism is not childfreedom, it's a philosophy questioning the ethics of creating new human- I have seen Antinatalist parents with adopted kids
“Parental licenses”- a bad ideaI often see this idea thrown around in the sub.
How do you enforce it? Anyone who can get impregnated could be by someone who can in a short amount of time in the privacy of their home. It’s basically not possible to physically stop people from doing so.
So is it punishable afterwards? What’s the punishment?
If the penalty is prison, the child will grow up with less parental involvement. That’s not helpful to the child, the penalty would punish an innocent child and probably increase suffering for punishment’s sake alone.
If the penalty is a fine, rich people who don’t meet criteria will easily bypass the system and poor people will have less money to spend on the child. It will make supporting the child even harder.
If the penalty is taking the child away, at that point it’s just forced surrender to foster care or adoption, which is almost always worse than just having the parent raise the kid. Children in these systems often fair worse and are subjected to abandonment and abuse.
So what do you even do? What’s the benefit?
SO HAS FINALLY COME TO SHARING MY BELIEFS! HE'S AN ANTINATALIST!AAAAAAAAAA He just emailed me saying he's been adopting an antinatalist worldview since late last month.
When I first introduced the idea of antinatalism to him, he was skeptical and didn't understand why I felt so strongly about this issue. But I guess over time, as we talked more about the topic and explored different perspectives, he began to see things from my point of view.
The last I talked with him (we're in a ldr), I seriously tried to emphasize on the fact of suffering as the epicentre of life and the very easy way to avoid it. I guess I could finally spark some realisation in him concerning the fact that procreation and the creation of new life is not a positive or ethical thing. I did get why he thought they were, he was born in a religious household after all.
I'm even happier as it came right after I was rebuked by extended fam about being a d\*ck Refer to the penultimate post). I was concerned that me being an antinatalist was concerning to our relationship, and well, I was finally able to talk some sense to have us see the world through the same lens!!!!!!!
TDLR: My boyfriend started condoning antinatalism (at last!), saving our relationship for the better!
EDIT: We're a gay couple and it was a difference in our worldview that we had, not about me being the one not wanting to have a child.
Anyone who wants humans to go extinct?I imagine a world where humans have become anti natalist and after the death of the last being, we all go extinct. What do you think?
Antinatalism and Buddhism connection?Just watched the youtube video on Antinatalism by Einzelganger. I can't post it since it says it's been posted here before...
I found the part about Buddhism relating to Antinatalism with Nirvana and the end of suffering. From my understanding, the end of your reincarnation cycle which Buddhists believe in equals the end of suffering and this is the highest achievement. Any Buddhist antinatalists or at least antinatalists with some interest in Buddhism?
I'm not really interested in traditions, so I've found it difficult to delve into Buddhism in the past when I've had run ins with its chants, ceremonies etc, but I'm intrigued by the philosophy part.
I am a “breeder” ask me anything.Pretty self explanatory really, I just saw a lot of people wondering about us.
Antinatalist vs society argument in a nutshell
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
We’ve heard you. We’ve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone — for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed — but we trust that the changes we’re implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, we’ve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency — an explicit philosophy, even — to “let the downvotes do their thing” by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
• Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules — regardless of whether we wish they are — remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the sub’s continued existence here on Reddit.
• Further to this we have added a new rule: “Content should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.” This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isn’t explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isn’t obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
– Before explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.”
– After explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I don’t think it’s inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates won’t necessarily relieve them of moral burden.”
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (we’re one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isn’t the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you haven’t a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try ‘round. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, I’m antinastylist. I’ve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20’s. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. I’m pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation – in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different “brand” of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (無生殖協会/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term “antinatalism,” but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isn’t or shouldn’t be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We haven’t seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
New Mods, Rule Changes, and State of the SubHello all,
We’ve heard you. We’ve seen the frustration that our lack of adequate moderation has caused. We, as the mod team, have been working to address this in deliberate steps including the revision of rules in response to common grievances and the addition of new moderators to ensure that our growing sub has the people-power it needs to enforce them. We know that no changes we make will appease everyone — for all the comments lamenting a lack of moderation, we see comments lamenting the censorship of the few comments that are removed — but we trust that the changes we’re implementing will serve to make this a healthier, stronger, and more welcoming community.
As a volunteer mod team, we’ve been making efforts to prioritise and improve the moderation of this subreddit. This includes, but is not limited to, additional members to the moderation team and a small amount of editing to the subreddit rules. The mod team is composed of individual humans with their own diverse perspectives and governed by consensus; these current perspectives differ from those of the prior mod team in that, amongst other things, there is an increased willingness to remove posts and maintain quality control. There has historically been a tendency — an explicit philosophy, even — to “let the downvotes do their thing” by having the community self-regulate. This is no longer the case. We are committed to your seeing an increase in mod actions taken by us.
We would like to take this opportunity to explain the rule changes.
• Firstly, we have removed some subreddit rules that were direct copies of Reddit rules. We felt like having them as both a site-wide rule and a subreddit rule was unnecessary and possibly confusing. Please note that all sitewide Reddit rules — regardless of whether we wish they are — remain applicable to our subreddit and will be enforced. Due especially to the banning of related subreddits, this is critical to the sub’s continued existence here on Reddit.
• Further to this we have added a new rule: “Content should be based in, or promote the discussion of, antinatalism.” This has been implemented due to an increase in content that could be better suited to another subreddit. We do, however, feel as though that does not always negate the possibility of content that isn’t explicitly antinatalist promoting good antinatalist discussion. We have implemented this in order to encourage conversation in a way that does not discourage users from posting content that they enjoy seeing on a day-to-day basis as long as it promotes the discussion of Antinatalism.
Posts on r/antinatalism should be of relevance to antinatalism, even if not explicitly linked. If the link between your post and antinatalism isn’t obvious, here are examples of ways to bring a post into antinatalist relevancy:
– Before explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate.”
– After explicitisation: “Here is a link to a scientific article about the declining global birthrate. What is the antinatalist position on this? From an ethical point-of-view, is this good or bad? Personally, I don’t think it’s inherently good, because people will just be unhappy and declining rates won’t necessarily relieve them of moral burden.”
As part of our commitment to transparency, we have added a link to Unddit in the sidebar in addition to the existing public moderation log (we’re one of the top ~25 subreddits in size that have chosen to enable this feature). Between these two resources, you are able to see not just that something was removed, but what it was. Our goal is never to censor any speech, only to maximise the positive experience of those on the sub; we wish for all words written on our sub to be readable, even if our sub isn’t the place for them.
Transparency means little without opportunity for redress and so we are currently planning an appeals process for mod decisions which balances your right to not be unfairly censored, and ours to not be unduly burdened with appeals. We are ultimately stewards of the community. Whilst you haven’t a say in who moderates r/antinatalism, and actions are ultimately taken at our discretion, this does not lessen the importance of your input as to how it is moderated.
Please consider these changes as an experiment. We may, depending on feedback and what we see, modify the rules further. The rule change is meant to address an identified issue, and issues are rarely fixed perfectly the first try ‘round. To best enable us to address the issue, we encourage you to use the report feature rather than messaging us through modmail. This helps us immensely to housekeep content on the sub. We will also hold weekly mod meetings to reflect on the effects of the new changes.
To help you get to know better the new members of your moderator team, some have taken the time to compose introductions:
u/antinastylist: Hi, I’m antinastylist. I’ve considered myself an antinatalist for over 10 years, and been a redditor for about as long. I grew up in a Christian household and discovered science, and therefore became an atheist, in my early 20’s. I was involved in what was, at the time, known as the YouTube Atheist Community by participating in video debates here and there (when response videos were still a thing). I discovered antinatalism as a natural extension of atheism and minimisation of suffering through that same community. I’m pleased to have been given the opportunity to support this community as a mod. I promise to always behave as objectively as possible, and in accordance with the rules decided upon by the moderation team.
u/meaminimaculpa: Hello everyone. Antinatalism is something I am very passionate about, and it means a lot to me to connect with people who feel the same. However, I have, on numerous occasions, expressed my dissatisfaction with the state of this subreddit. But instead of just complaining and doing nothing, I wanted to do something about it, so I applied for a mod post. I am very grateful for this opportunity and I'm happy to offer you my time, energy, patience, and enthusiasm to bring some quality control back to this subreddit, to make it a better, and less toxic, place, and to improve its atmosphere and reputation – in agreement with the other mods and in accordance with its original purpose and guidelines. Here's to a good cooperation! (Note: I am using this account for modding purposes exclusively. I have been, and will continue to be, active in antinatalist communities on Reddit with my main account.)
u/AnEnvironmentalist19: Hello all, As someone fairly new to the concept of Antinatalism, I find myself in the (questionably strange) position of being a moderator of the largest Antinatalism subreddit there is. I applied for a few reasons, firstly, I have a slightly different “brand” of antinatalism to some of the other mods, and also I felt like a fresh face may bring something to the team. I look forward to working with the other mods, and you all, in order to create a positive space for Antinatalists to talk that is free from toxicity. (As a side note, this is a separate account for the purpose of moderating, but I am an active reddit user.)
u/Asagi_HOZUMI: Hello, fellow antinatalists! Given that I had not been very active on Reddit before joining the moderation team, and that I had no proper introduction post even after that, I would like to use this opportunity to introduce myself to the community and let you folks know more about me and what I stand for.
I am Asagi Hozumi from Japan, an antinatalist since the time around 2014, and vegan since 2019 or 2020 (I don't remember exactly when). A few of you may recognize me as the co-founder of Antinatalism Japan (無生殖協会/museishoku kyoukai), from which you will hopefully begin to see some street activism stuff before the end of this year :)
As an antinatalist, I haven't liked the state of this subreddit ever since I discovered it. I have feared that, for many people who haven't had an opportunity to determine their position towards procreation of painient beings, this subreddit can be their very first encounter with the term “antinatalism,” but with a wrong understanding of it due to the post/comments they see that are primarily about things like child hate, childfreedom, misandry, misogyny, things that antinatalism isn’t or shouldn’t be (speciesism is one good example), or anything that gives antinatalism bad public image. As much as we want this subreddit to be a comfortable place for existing antinatalists, it should serve the purpose of turning everyone anti-natal; if it does nothing but prevent us from achieving that goal, it should be deleted. I was invited to join the mod team about a year ago, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to do something about it. We haven’t seen any major positive change since then, which is a big shame, but I will try to make it happen alongside with the group of amazing people who are compassionate enough to use their time and energy for non-existent beings who will never come into existence to thank them.
Thank you for your participation in our community.
The r/antinatalism Mod Team
EDIT: /u/anfella has renamed their account to /u/antinastylist
I am so pleased with my purchase.
"If you 25+ with no kids, you're the problem" 😒
I'll never understand...
The Recent History of Antinatalism Online
Welp, we finally did itWe ended up on r/blatantmisogyny. Because of the post of the pregnant woman with a tinder profile. I saw the post myself, and it isn't even pretending to be antinatalist. Just a pregnant woman with the title "lmao". All the profile says is that she's pregnant and wants to date. For a second I thought I was looking at an incel sub. Then I realized it was us.
I've been clinging onto this sub for awhile because it was what first introduced me to the philosophy of antinatalism. But it's clear now that our ideals are not the same. Maybe if the mods cared enough to get rid of misogynistic content, then people wouldn't be leaving in droves.
Well, so long.
As a society we should stop having children and adopt Pit bulls. No child would get hurt again if there is no child to be hurt! Do you part, Reddit Nation! ✊🏽
I am thankful that I was bornFor some reason, this subreddit was recommended to me.
I am looking forward to having children in the future.
Even though my life had its up and downs, I can say that living life is something worthwhile.
I don't believe that by bringing more humans to Earth, we are 'destroying' it (although we are altering it).
I mean, if an asteroid came and hit Earth today and sliced it in half to make other planets, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Earth would simply become a different atomical structure.
Can you explain to me why people are so attached to the idea of antinatalism?
Im a father of 3 young kids AMAAMA.
Had all 3 by choice.
Raising them non-religious.
They're my (and my wife's) biggest responsability.
Not a financial burden but we can rarely afford to travel.
The love I feel towards them is unlike anything I've ever felt prior.
Why are the breeders here?The title is simple enough. I don't go anywhere near breeder spaces. What do they want besides to shit on us for our choice? There are plenty of other options for breeders. Why are the breeders here?
Do you agree, that this sub unintentionally promotes misogynyScrolling down just for a couple of seconds and you realize, that the vast majority of criticism is directed towards mothers or soon-to-be-mothers.
The iconography is simple, as precreation is mostly associated with pregnancy. But not only are men underrepresented in being the culprits of procreation, it causes an disproportional amount of hate to be solely directed towards women.
Do you agree? If not please share your thoughts.
Does this sub hate men?I've seen many times, people here saying most guys here are incels who are only antinatalist because they don't have the opportunity to breed in the first place. Isn't this mentality kind of antagonistic and harmful ? . It would be like saying to a woman that they are only antinatalist since they haven't found a man with lots of money who is wealthy, popular , etc. If a celeb picked you up you surely wouldn't breed right? See? Anyways maybe stop antagonizing people and gatekeeping an already fringe philosophy.
This kind of nihilism confuses me.Im struggling to wrap my head around the ideals of most people in this sub. Do you all believe your life is so bad that it would have been better to have never been born?
Personally im glad my parents never had these ideals. Ive been through my fair share of shitty experiences, in fact today has been the worst day of my life so far. But i still cant understand how i could ever be nihilistic.
I think having a child is giving someone else a chance at life, they can have a go. Meet friends, eat foods, have fun and find a relationship.
I do see why you wouldnt want a kid in certain situations, like in a wartorn country or other horrific places. And ofc if you dont want a kid cause you arent feeling it thats totally ok but the reason of "life sucks and if i have a kid they will be subjected to a system of suffering" just never resonated with me.
made these stickers, thought y’all might enjoy them!
this is just gross
The objective not outweighing the subjective.This is a case of 'I know, but I feel". I (34F) grew up imagining having kids and having a family. It's what I envisioned for myself for so long, with an, albeit, naively hopeful ideology and perspective. That's swayed through the years, especially at this point in life. However, I still have feelings of wanting to have children with my loved one, and I feel immensely guilty about it.
The world may basically end in our lifetime, if you're not rich then you're fucked, I get all that. But I'm still struggling with facts not outweighing feelings/hormones/fantasies, and I know that I'm a dumb piece of shit for it, and I feel guilty for wanting it.
Memes and jokes and generalized insults aside, help convince me that bringing more life into this world is a bad idea.
As a Muslim this sub hurts my brainAs the tittle said, I am a Muslim. I believe in one creator (Allah) and I believe in the prophets that said creator sent. I also believe this life is a test to determine if we are eligible to enter paradise.
I have reasons to believe this for more than just spiritual reasons. There are multiple verses in the Quran that have been scientifically proven over a millennia later after we got more technologically advanced.
For instance in chapter 23 (the believer) verse 12-14 “And indeed, We created humankind from an extract of clay, then placed each ˹human˺ as a sperm-drop in a secure place, then We developed the drop into a clinging clot ˹of blood˺, then developed the clot into a lump ˹of flesh˺, then developed the lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, then We brought it into being as a new creation. So Blessed is Allah, the Best of Creators.”
This talks about the different stages of child development in the womb. This was discovered with ultrasound to be precisely how the Quran describes it to be (minus the clay part).
This is one small part of why I believe this book to be the word of Allah. If you want more examples I have plenty more
Now some of you are probably thinking “well religion changes constantly to match the current world” and you’re right, most religions do. Except Islam. We have 3 main ways to prove it has been unchanged for 1400+ years.
1) the oral tradition. Today there are millions of people who can recite the Quran from the beginning to end without ever looking at the text.
2) the unbroken chain of narration. During the life of the prophet (pboh) he had disciples who wrote the Quran (because the prophet was illiterate) and what the prophet did. These disciples then had disciples who wrote down what they did as well as what their disciples were doing and who they were. This continues until present day.
3) this is my favourite one. In the university of Birmingham there is a Quran from the life of the prophet that has been carbon dated and confirmed to be around the time of the prophet.
I wrote this entire thing to not have to explain myself over and over again
Now that we got the basics out of the way explain to me why having children is morally wrong
How does everyone feel about thisIf reddit and this subreddit existed back in the days of your parents and they, just like you agreed with it, you wouldn't exist. How do you feel about that?
Not hating BTW
To sum up my feelings on having kids in one picture
No one is responsibleNobody is responsible, like sheep in a flock, they follow the path their shepherd forces them to, for fear of being punished by the pole, whoever leaves the flock is beaten, to the point that having their own initiative is considered a conduct disorder.
This is the main reason why people commit acts that are harmful to them, such as having children, since the consequences of leaving the herd are worse, the shepherd's pole.
If the world is too terrible to bring new people into it, why are you still posting here?I've seen this pattern a lot on this sub and I still haven't gotten a satisfactory explanation of this attitude. Surely if not having kids is an act of mercy upon the potential child, wouldn't it be an act of mercy upon yourself to just quit living? And don't get me wrong, I don't mind any of you living on, but it just follows from that argument that life isn't worth living, so why? Are you a hypocrite who won't apply the same standard to yourself? Are you too much of a coward? Do you hate yourself and think you deserve it? Are you just lying to make yourself feel better because you're insecure about your antinatalist convictions? What is it?
Obligatory disclaimer that it's your business whether you want to have kids or not, I just find this justification to be very weak.
An argument with a classmateI was talking to 2 girls who both said that they wanted kids. I asked why and they said so their bloodline would continue and so they wouldn't be alone. I said I don't want that in response. I said that kids are cunts (as a guy who's been a professional kid for 16 years I can say that) and I wanna be single and without kids. They said you'll be lonely and why. I said so i have no responsibility for others and ca spend all my money on myself. They then said this was selfish. Is it really?
Why are all my comments and posts deleted? Is there a reason I'm not welcome?I have wasted my time reading the rules, and I have not broken any, however both comments and posts are automatically deleted.
Antinatalism is too small a movement to turn away supporters and patrons
Dudes im confused hereAren’t you guys born? You guys are organisms right? I just came here so please spare me but this subreddit is about having children is wrong. So why do you guys exist?
Edit: holy crap I did not know I would get such angry replies??? Im leaving dudes spare my notifications
This is a strange groupI come from a suggested post but this a really edgy group isnt it?
I get it, you guys are suffering and you dont want kids. Thats super duper legitimate. Fuck them kids.
But by the nature of the philisophy "antinatalism" has an expiration date. Unless one of you takes one for the team and poops a kid out, your view of the world is gonna vanish.
Someone needs to designate a more temperate antinatalist to be a breeder lol.
Society cares more about keeping people alive than ensuring they have enjoyable livesIt just goes to show that we are little more than animals at the end of the day, forever trapped in tne so-called "Circle of Life". Those at the top of the food chain need us alive so that they can continue to exploit us. The state doesn't care about you, mental health professionals don't care about you, few people actually do. Even your own parents cared more about the joy they would experience by conceiving a child than all the suffering you would probably hav to endure.
It really makes me wonder if theres something wrong with me for hating life or with other people for enjoying it. They have collectively brainwashed themselves into believing that life has some kind of purpose and that they should pass on their (often awful) genetics in order to fulfill that purpose. It's all one massive cope. I mean, would it really be that bad if the human race went extinct? We are all going to return to nothing one day whether we want to or not, so why does it matter?
The fact that we imprison people in hospitals and medicate/gaslight them until they develop the will to live is straight-up inhumane to me. I've even seen people who have basically deteriorated into vegetables due to some life-threatening neurological disease like Huntington's kept alive by their families just for the sake of being kept alive. Nobody cares that the poor individual is suffering on a daily basis.
As a Muslim this sub hurts my brainAs the tittle said, I am a Muslim. I believe in one creator (Allah) and I believe in the prophets that said creator sent. I also believe this life is a test to determine if we are eligible to enter paradise.
I have reasons to believe this for more than just spiritual reasons. There are multiple verses in the Quran that have been scientifically proven over a millennia later after we got more technologically advanced.
For instance in chapter 23 (the believer) verse 12-14 “And indeed, We created humankind from an extract of clay, then placed each ˹human˺ as a sperm-drop in a secure place, then We developed the drop into a clinging clot ˹of blood˺, then developed the clot into a lump ˹of flesh˺, then developed the lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, then We brought it into being as a new creation. So Blessed is Allah, the Best of Creators.”
This talks about the different stages of child development in the womb. This was discovered with ultrasound to be precisely how the Quran describes it to be (minus the clay part).
This is one small part of why I believe this book to be the word of Allah. If you want more examples I have plenty more
Now some of you are probably thinking “well religion changes constantly to match the current world” and you’re right, most religions do. Except Islam. We have 3 main ways to prove it has been unchanged for 1400+ years.
1) the oral tradition. Today there are millions of people who can recite the Quran from the beginning to end without ever looking at the text.
2) the unbroken chain of narration. During the life of the prophet (pboh) he had disciples who wrote the Quran (because the prophet was illiterate) and what the prophet did. These disciples then had disciples who wrote down what they did as well as what their disciples were doing and who they were. This continues until present day.
3) this is my favourite one. In the university of Birmingham there is a Quran from the life of the prophet that has been carbon dated and confirmed to be around the time of the prophet.
I wrote this entire thing to not have to explain myself over and over again
Now that we got the basics out of the way explain to me why having children is morally wrong
Are memes allowed?
weekend is here again
i wonder how it's gonna feel for these people whose parents put every minute of their childhood online. first word videos are a whole genera...
I'm 23 and the only thing I want to do over time is have a kid , this is the logical truth but cope imo ( antinatalism )Attempted virtue
I'm 23 and the only thing I want to do over time is have a kid , this is the logical truth but cope imo ( antinatalism )Attempted virtue
A picture is worth a thousand words
A little but of humour.
Antinatalism in Russia | Roma
Which side of antinatalism are you on ? (Natalists should have the right to reproduce vs they shouldn’t)Rights to your rights ? Or no rights to your rights if they interfere with the rights of others (children for example)
Should natalists be able to simply choose not to have kids on their own without being forced (team free will, even if their use of free will impacts the free will of their potential kids) or should they be forced to not have kids.
Should they have the right to reproduction even though you disagree with it, or should they not have the right at all (stop reproduction by any means necessary)
I’m on the semi radical side of things and I just wanna know who else is. If it was up to me..people would not be able to have kids.
Hot take : I feel like human rights to reproduction are less important than the compromised rights of the potential kid when they’re born into this world.
Ask me anything:I am an natalist, and I wasn't quite sure or knew that people even thought having children were wrong.
I want to know more about your beliefs, and I want you to understand mine.
Please be respectful when asking questions.
Thank you!
Scary thing i saw here 🫣🫣😳ive seen quite a lot people here say like they don't plan anything for retirement and if they can't sustain themselves, they'll "just unalive" in this case
uhmm this is very strange to me 🤔 are these people serious? 😳 it's easy to say how you will "just unalive" yourself when youre like 30+ years away from this moment X ☘️
but will you actually be able to carry out when you actually get to this point? 🫣
i guess more probably at this point you will be feeling like "😭 i wish i had a more solid plan, saved more money, etc. etc. 😭😭 now my life is so miserable and I don't have the strength to unalive myself 😭"
hug🤗🤗🌻🌻🥰
ConfusedSo I only just recently heard about antinatalism, and to be honest my first thought was that people who believe in this must all be weirdos.
“How can you be against life, or the creation of it at least.”
Obviously, that’s not fair of me to assume, which is why I came here to try and understand this point of view, but from what I’ve read, a lot of the belief here is that “I didn’t ask to be born, I’m going to kill myself at some point, there’s no reason for humanity.” Don’t get me wrong, I understand not wanting children (I certainly don’t), and having suicidal thoughts, but I’d never say I’m against birth because of my feelings.
It’s my belief that although I never asked to be born, I’m here, so I’ll suck it up and try, even though it seems pointless , to make each day worth it.
But what are your thoughts, why do you believe in antinatalism, and am I wrong in what I think antinatalism is (probably)?
I think I found this sub at the right timeSo, for context, I'm female.
Today I've been having very, very strong urges to go to my boyfriend and say, "Let's marry and try for a kid!"
It's an intense battle with myself because I have to remember these feelings are just nature doing its thing, not how I *actually* feel or want for myself.
I *do not* agree with his parenting style. I *do not* trust this man. And most of all, it is *cruel* to bring life into this world. Who the hell am I to force someone else to be alive? That's not fair.
Please, I just need likeminded people to remind me of this, and encourage me to stay strong. To not give in to nature. It's highly appreciated. BF thinks it's "just a phase" that I'll grow out of since I'm in my early 20s. I need him to be wrong. I need to remember that he's wrong.
relation trauma and antinatalismhey,
I'm curious about the relationship between having past trauma expierence and antinatalism. I suspect that a lot of people here had lots of trauma/or still suffer from the impact it had.
I think thats almost impossible to end the suffering. I think we all have to accept the painful existance so far and i think people with trauma are smart enough to know, that they carry something. Just my thoughts.
I figured you folks would enjoy my new hoodie. ☠️
Is more difficult to have a dog than raise a child?(Sorry if bad English, I am not a native English speaker)
In Spain, you have to make a obligatory course in order to have a dog, cat, etc, but you need nothing to be able to have a child, if my environment is good or bad doesn't care, if I am able to raise that child properly doesn't care, you don't have to know what to do in concrete cases, not everyone is able to have a dog but everyone can have a child.
I think that is ridiculous.
New person here, got a questionHello, I find the idea of antinatalism very interesting, though I have some questions.
First of all, why do you believe in it?
How universal or personal is it, as in, should everyone believe in it?
How does the biological aspect, that we have to reproduce, in your view weight? Additionally, does it even conflict? A nihilist may say „Well, theoratically there is no point in reproducing in the first place!“
Thank you.
The existence of Hell is the perfect reason not to procreate. I was raised in church, and not one person encouraged me to think seriously about hell before having children. Why not?Bottom line: If you believe eternal torment is a possible outcome for your offspring, you have no business birthing children into this world.
A Guide to AntiNatalismThis is a simple, and intended to be brief, guide to AntiNatalism (the subreddit, and the philosphy). I'll answer some common questions, both to divert interactions with suspected trolls and to helpgenuine newcomers to this sub/philosophy (or those just curious).
This post is not intended to overshadow other FAQs posted, it is to provide a very condensed and simply-worded version of the FAQ in a fresh manner, and address some common questions not covered in the original post.
For the original r/Antinatalist FAQ, go to [https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/wiki/beginnersguide/](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/wiki/beginnersguide/)
# What is AntiNatalism?
This subreddit describes it best: "The philosophical belief that having children is morally wrong and cannot be justified."
**Vocabulary: Natalism-** Natalism is the belief that childbearing is good or morally just. "Anti" natalism is the opposite. Another term used on this subreddit for natalists are "breeders," but that carries a heavily derogatory tone.
# So... You Just Hate Kids?
Nope. Or at least, not all of us.
Generally, we believe in limiting suffering as much as we can. All humans suffer at some point in their lives.
More specifically, many of us love children and are sympathetic of their position: born when they never asked to be. Forced to be alive for no good reason other than the assumed\* selfishness of their parents.
Some of us do dislike children, yes, but that is more like a preference or personality trait separate from Anti-Natalism than a part of the philosophy itself.
In essence, our qualm is with babies that could exist and trying to spread the word that they shouldn't rather than with the individual children themselves that already exist.
\**Some in* t*his subreddit might disagree, but maybe not all birth parents are selfish. Some don't know any better, have no access to healthcare/sex education, or other reasons. We have several AN who are parents that discovered that this philosophy is right for them after having kids. However, there are too many people that believe birth and babies are an overall net positive and something to be celebrated.*
# If People are "Forced to be Alive", what about Animals?
While you can (debatably, from what I've seen, but I'm not here to put the argument to rest) be AN and not vegan, many of us are vegan to prevent suffering, extra animals being birthed to keep up with demand, and other reasons.
They also, in an ideal world, prevent their pets from mating and giving birth, and only adopt existing animals without homes rather than buying from a breeder. So, in the ways we have direct control over, animals are included.
So, veganism (and the adopt-don't-shop mantra) goes hand-in-hand with AN.
# Why Don't You Just Kill Yourselves!?
Good question! And one I ask myself every day!
Jokes aside, I did wonder this when first wandering this subreddit. But it turns out, some people like being alive! Even if they're Anti-Natalists.
Sure, they've had their hardships, but these people are just built different. They love life! But... that doesn't mean that their kids would.
There are other reasons, too. One of them is religion (which I don't feel qualified to talk about, so moving on...) as well as circling back to the "limiting suffering" part. When people die, there is the suffering of the people still left alive that have to cope with that death.
# Are You Just Mad At Your Parents?
Well, for some of us, yes!
Many of us were born into circumstances we shouldn't have been! Poverty, unstable parental relationships, undereducated parents, and other situations.
What many don't seem to comprehend is that when you bring a baby into this world, it doesn't stay a cute crib-dweller for long. That baby is going to be a person with feelings and complex needs. It's not a relationship fixer, a tax write-off, or anything else besides a *person.*
**However,** not all of us "hate our parents". Some of us had great childhoods, and like our lives and family! But we understand not everyone born will be that fortunate, even if we end up being good at parenting.
We believe the best kind of parent is one who adopts, or resists their desire to bring a baby unnecessarily into this world and loves their hypothetical children enough to put their lack of suffering before their own wishes or aspirations.
​
# Conclusion
This information was gathered using this subreddit and other online resources. I'm not affiliated with any official AN group, or this sub besides just being a member.
However, I hope I made a few things clear. I will be adding to this when I see more questions come up. Suggestions are welcome, but I will only be covering the answers to questions that I can be certain of.
what's the overall end goal?So I'm a little confused. What is the overall end goal of the antinatalism philosophy/ movement because the only end i can see happening if it became widely accepted is the eventual extinction of all life on earth. Is there more that I'm not seeing or is that just it?
Idaho student murdersYet another reason in a long list of reasons to NOT have children. Imagine sending your kid off to college just for them to be murdered brutally by a fucking psychopath for no reason. Imagine all the suffering caused not only for the parents, but for the four people who died as well. Imagine the pain of having a knife plunged into you repeatedly over and over again, I honestly can't even begin to imagine.This world is simply not an ideal place to bring a child into and I don't know what it's going to take for people to see that. It's so disgusting when people say "but bad things happen all the time" like it's nothing and they just accept it and continue the cycle. The gamble just isn't worth it, it needs to STOP.
Examples and cases of antinatalist couples raising adopted kidsHi there,
Where can I find real stories of antinatalist couples deciding to adopt and actually doing it?
I would like some stories of encouragement. This is a goal of mine, and it is proving to be rather difficult for my situation. I am still wanting to do it, but envisioning and watching real life examples will definitely empower me more.
Thank you!
Thanks, I hate it
I am self dependent
Not something to celebrate 🤷🏽♂️
New to this concept as a wholeSo I'm new to the concept of antinatalism, and I'm a bit confused. Is the goal of antinatalism to just...slowly wipe ourselves out to prevent suffering at a sort of grand scale? If everyone who wished for a child adopted instead and the birthrate just dropped to zero this very moment, would that meet the goal? Is it an inherently bad thing that humanity exists? That any of us exist? I'm not trying to troll or anything by any means, I'm just really confused about how all of this works.
This sub is bullshit.Not a single argument pointing out bad parents proves nothing.
Are antinatalist's looking for the human race to die out?I just stumbled across this sub and I'm a little confused/intrigued.
​
I understand that life is hard and some places in the world are not right for bringing up children however the summary of what antinatalism is:
The philosophical belief that having children is morally wrong and cannot be justified.
​
Is this a hard statement? Do supporters want the entire human race to die out in the next 120 years?
​
If so, why?
The horrifying theory of open individualism is the reason I'm an antinatalistAccording to modern theories of the mind there is no self or soul that exists. This means that there isn't a solid, definite 'you' that experiences being 'you'. Instead the sense of self, the sense of being 'you' is a sense a body creates - it's the minds map/model of the body. This means that there is no owner of consciousness - your or miy consciousness isn't owned by anybody. 'We' are the product of this consciousness.
So wherever there is conscious experience happening somewhere it must be experienced. It simply must be experienced - but it won't be experienced by an individual or any person in particular because the 'individual' is the sense of self/identity that a conscious brain pieces together and creates after the fact. A brain that has no owner. The real you is the sensory perception/consciousness that experiences a particular creature. Wherever this sensory perception is, it's you - so every sentient being is being experienced by the same consciousness. It doesn't feel that way because perception can only experience the minds and memories of one brain at a time. Sort of like if you forgot a past experience - it still happened and was experienced even though the experience is not present right now.
Here is an analogy - Imagine if two separate people could have their brains connected so that they could experience being that other person and themselves simultaneously. In this case there would be one consciousness experiencing two sets of memories, experiences, and personalities/moods (being two people at once). It wasn't like there were originally two consciousnesses that became one - but rather the one same consciousness now experiencing the content of two brains/bodies simultaneously.
If you are still confused here is another analogy - imagine someone's brain was separated into two pieces while still inside a body so that there were now 'two' minds in one body. In this case there is still one consciousness but two separate senses of self within the one same body. It would be like having two people with separate experiences and memories in one body. This is already happening right now, just in separate bodies.
This means 'you' and 'I' are every conscious being to ever have existed, currently exist, and will exist forever as long as there is consciousness somewhere in the universe.
Ask yourself, why were you born as you? Why has your whole life been seeing through your set of eyes and not someone else's? It's not because you won the lottery and beat the odds of one to a trillion of existing - it's that the same perception seeing through your eyes and experiencing being the person in the mirror is the same one that has experienced being ever other conscious being ever. There is just one, lone consciousness in the universe that incorrectly thinks it's one of many.
I hope I'm wrong but unless there is some sort of separate individual soul, this appears to be the implications of modern neuroscience.
mechANized: Antinatalism & Open AI #2 Matti Häyry & Amanda Sukenick
Why do you believe having children is “Morally Wrong”?I’ve just discovered this sub. The bio says this community is for people that believe having children is “morally wrong”.
Enlighten me!
Why do we always glorify these people?? Producing a child when you have a terminal illness shouldn't be viewed as your "departing gift" to the world. It is not heroic or an act of love to bring a child into the world when you won't even be around to support and take care of them.
My reasons to never have childrenI have taken a rock solid vow to never have a kid and inflict the punishment of existence. I think these are the possible reasons to NOT have a child :
1. Life is mostly full of suffering. There may be methods to alleviate suffering (like the buddhist eightfold path) but the child has to learn them and put intense effort into internalising them. This may take years and yet may not have the desired effect. Also by bringing them into existence aren't parents responsible for atleast a big part of that suffering?
2. It's very very unlikely that the child will do something meaningful like become the next Jeff Bezos or Einstein. Most likely it will just work a meaningless job with bad pay in which it has no interest. Just become another cog in the giant machine of society.
3. There are loads of kids in orphanages that need love and care. Why not adopt them if one needs a child?
4. If one has mental/physical health problems, there is a high chance one may pass it to them.
5. Our world is already overpopulated and biodiversity is collapsing. The last thing it needs is more humans who add major carbon footprint and more needs for food, water, living space.
6. It's a very bad financial decision. If you can't afford to raise a kid, have some shame and don't make it society's problem.
7. If one has a very hectic job, better not have a child than have a child and neglect it. This may lead to major issues with abandonment and low self worth.
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Cabrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
Isn't antinatalism silly because it's just antinatalism for antinatalists?If you want to avoid suffering and stick it to the breeder scum by not breeding, aren't the only people who win breeders? Intelligence, social attitudes and personality traits are all highly heritable. The intelligence of the mother is a far better predictor of a child's intelligence than even things like breastfeeding are, there's only a correlation because low IQ women are so neglectful of their own children they don't even breastfeed them. In Western countries the people who reproduce most are those who are on welfare and have criminal backgrounds, and score poorly on IQ tests.
Wouldn't lots of people who are thoughtful and capable of making lifestyle changes based on the recognition that perhaps life entails more suffering than anything it gives as a return simply result in more people who are violent, thoughtless cretins reproducing? At best, all you are doing is weeding people who are inclined by genetics to hold antinatalist beliefs out of the gene pool, which does less than nothing for the cause of antinatalism.
It's even worse for VHEMT and vegan antinatalists, since they will just die without passing on their genes and some guy called Mutumbo who throws his plastic on the side of the road and eats 50 chickens a year with no regard for their suffering or ability to empathise with them will multiply and fill up the world. The few global north SWPLs who might have had the influence to try and do something all just died out and you're left with people who wanna go fast and live the good life.
You are literally telling people who are predisposed to agreeing with you to reproductively hamstring themselves and going "oh well that's reasonable because it's about individual choice right, it's not coercive?". You are devoting time and effort to making less people agree with you to change the state of the world... somehow. Not to mention that having a giant vegan civilisation with billions of people still has a tremendously deleterious impact on animal life and wild nature (even if the majority of land vertebrates biomass is in livestock right now).
If it's just "oh well I'm making the personal choice to not bring human life into this world and make it suffer" it's still pretty silly. Is this supposed to be some kind of win? I don't get why you don't just unbirth yourself on the spot if you come to the conclusion that this is getting a one-up on the universe. (and personally I do believe that should be people's choice if they want to, since for most people the cons of life really do outweigh the pros and the juice isn't worth the squeeze)
What about the immense amount of suffering that is inherent in complex life on Earth existing anyway? Do you not watch animal planet and try to simulate in your mind what a terrified, un-self-aware creature who has evolved to feel nothing but sheer terror and pain to avoid something it no longer has any hope of avoiding is going through? If you really wanted to be moral about preventing this, you would find a way to salt the entire surface of the Earth with radioactive isotopes so nothing with a nervous system remains alive. Antinatalism to me looks like smugness, spite, complacency, hypocrisy and a one-dimensional thought process that does the opposite of what it sets out to do.
The “miserablist” approach to antinatalismHello everyone.
Back in August 2018, Andrew McIntosh uploaded a video essay entitled [Why I'm an Antinatalist, But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0ABy9dfOE) (The script is linked in the video description.)
Considering the increase in popularity and the attention antinatalism and the antinatalist community have seen recently, I believe that this is an approach some of you might find relatable. In any case, I think it is a perspective worth bringing back into the discussion.
Though I do not necessarily share his perspective (I have outlined my own "antinatalist journey" [els](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/y6hfth/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ewh](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/y6hhc4/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/)[ere](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/y6hhyk/antinatalism_and_your_own_philosophical_journey/) and shared my views and my research [here](https://np.reddit.com/user/LennyKing/comments/z4g8sk/just_some_of_my_posts_and_comments_for_quick/)), I often find myself thinking: What is it that makes this "fringe" philosophy so appealing to *us*? What comes first, the irrational belief, or the rational arguments? Could it be, even if the arguments for antinatalism themselves – Benatar's [axiological asymmetry & quality of life argument (2006)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199296422.001.0001), [Benatar's misanthropic argument (2015)](https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199378111.003.0002), [Häyry's risk argument (2004)](http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/jme.2003.004424), [Shiffrin's consent argument (1999)](http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/shiffrin/Shiffrin-WrongfulLife.pdf), [Akerma's never-act rule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSBuIUoBm0), Carbrera's moral impediment, and the "[creating need](https://np.reddit.com/r/antinatalism2/comments/yo3ziv/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)[s for no need](https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueAntinatalists/comments/yo3ywk/the_creating_needs_for_no_need_argument/)" argument, and, perhaps, others – are sound and make a lot of sense to us, that, at the end of the day, we are just as subjected to *our* biases as the "stupid happy" [cheery optimists](https://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10790-022-09884-8) are to theirs, and what we are inclined to see as some sort of enlightened pessimism is, in reality, little more than our rationalization of these subjective biases?
Are we, as Andrew put it, just "miserable bastards" like him?
I am playing the devil's advocate here. I suppose, as antinatalists, we are used to hearing *ad hominem* attacks like "you are just sad/miserable/pathetic/depressed, and only people like that would hold such views", which have been addressed [here](https://www.antinatalism.net/#faq), [here](https://antinatalisthandbook.org/languages/english/#english-16), and [here](https://antinatalismguide.wixsite.com/guide/common-counterarguments-rebuttals-1). And, of course, there's Sam Woolfe's excellent article [on antinatalism and depression](https://epochemagazine.org/30/on-antinatalism-and-depression/) and the phenomenon of depressive realism.
However, for veganism, it was much more clear-cut for me:
1. I was not vegan;
2. I seriously considered the arguments for veganism and their consistency with my ethical principles;
3. I was convinced, changed my habits, and adopted a vegan lifestyle.
With regards to philosophical pessimism, and antinatalism in particular, I am not so sure.
Perhaps one can think of antinatalism and its claim to universality as a spectrum, with Andrew's "miserablist" approach on the one end, and antinatalist activism (with prominent activists and even organizations like [Stop Having Kids](https://www.stophavingkids.org/)) on the other end. Where on this spectrum do you see yourselves?
Just realized i had . Its so comfortable! ❤️
Thanks for introducing me to veganismIf it wasn’t for the people on here who kept discussing and debating veganism, even when people refused to listen or resorted to the same illogical excuses natalists pull, I would have never been introduced to the philosophy and realized I was directly complicit in the suffering of thousands of sentient beings. I have now been vegan since September last year and I could not have done it without you all exposing my ignorance and irrationality. Thank you so much.
To everyone here who remains unconvinced of the vegan philosophy, please watch the documentary Dominion. It’s available for free on YouTube and shows the reality we forcefully breed sentient beings into.
My mom told it was my decision to be bornAs ridiculous as it sounds, but it was my fault I was born.
I had an argument with both of my parents that started with my dad saying that I am egoistic for not wanting kids and not being happy with the life that they gave me, and ended with my mom (completely crazy about spirituality and believing in past life) that I as a little angel-baby decided myself which family I am going to be born into and that my spirit have chosen this family. Basically, I asked to be born at the spiritual realm and now how to deal with this life. I am the only one who is to blame here, my parents didn’t do anything wrong. Now I am just crying in my room and want to kill myself
Kids no matter whatI don't want kids mainly cause I'm barely able to take care of myself but largely because I'm bipolar and have some other illnesses. Anyway, telling my boss that one day and she says she would have had kids no matter what. Said she'd risk any abnormality of whatever just for the sake of her getting what she wants. How the hell do you even respond to that?
How would you feel about a law that completely banned new babies from being born?Like forcing ~~abortions~~ Vasectomies/sterilization on everyone
Edit: changed abortions to vasectomies.
Repost. Who is the offender in this situation?
Why I'm An AntinatalistA video about why I'm an antinatalist. My YouTube channel is all about antinatalism, check it out here: [https://www.youtube.com/lawrenceanton](https://www.youtube.com/lawrenceanton)
Made me laugh
FarewellWhen I came to this sub, I was interested in the philosophical reasons for not having children. I found some things there that I quite agreed with, and it’s influenced my thinking.
For the last few months, however, my feed has been bombarded with hate and vitriol towards anyone with children or considering being parents, especially women. This isn’t what I’m about. Hate like I see here is entirely against what I stand for. It’s the same nonsense I see from incels and the like- hateful rhetoric justified with self-imposed victimhood. “My life stinks, so I hate the kind of people that brought me into this world.”
To be clear, I’m not against antinatalism. What I’m saying is that this sub has become a trash pit, a hate group that no longer resembles what I believe the first antinatalists might have endorsed. The original ideas have influenced my thinking, but I won’t use that to justify hating normal people, including my loved ones. I’m trying to have greater compassion and understanding for those that make different decisions than I do, not less. Plus, spite never changes hearts and minds. Kind, reasoned, understanding dialogue does. That’s not to say that antinatalism doesn’t face the same sort of criticism- it does, but the answer isn’t to return fire in kind. I hope this sub figures itself out and decides to take the high road. Maybe then it will be more attractive to the mainstream. Until then, adieu.
my mom tells me she should have aborted meMy mom gave birth to me at 18 and claims that i ruined her life, like did i choose to be born? It was her choice to risk that. It was her choice to drop out of college and have a shitty job. She abused me physically, emotionally , and sexually, and i believe it is resentment towards her own poor choices. Its not fair to people like me. I was her first born . I also happen to be diagnosed with autism (ASD), OCD, and other stuff, and she always tells me that she should have aborted me, and that I "make her wonder" and that she wishes she had a "normal child" and that she never wanted me. Its just really frustrating because Its not even my fucking fault. She is the one giving birth knowing damn well that our family bloodline has tons of problems including schizophrenia. Do you guys think that she is taking her own regret on me ?
What's it all about?Nothing big, just curious about the anti-natalism viewpoint, so I thought I'd ask people who partake in it.
People who should never have kids in the first place know how to value them and help them navigate the horror of existence. Right?
This photo posted by some rad people in SLC has been making the rounds today! Posted in r/pics & r/conspiracy the comments aren’t too terrible.
Can we be "wrong" about our own happiness?One argument I've heard repeatedly (including in Better Never to Have Been) appeals to Optimism Bias and Terror Management Theory to explain why our life is worse than we think—that is, we can't as humans accurately evaluate our own happiness because we delude ourselves. But I'm a little confused by this argument. Specifically, I'm not sure how we can be wrong about our own mental states. If we don't recognize a state as "unhappy" then are we actually unhappy? Happiness/satisfaction are definitionally subjective states, right? Isn't *thinking* you're happy/satisfied the same as *being* happy/satisfied, regardless of whether a 3rd party thinks you *shouldn't be* (whatever "shouldn't be" can possibly mean here)?
I don't understand how one can appeal to the generally negative experience of life by appealing to what appears to be an empirically demonstrated effect whereby we are programmed to actually have a generally positive evaluation of our lives.
To be clear, there are going to be people who do consider there life to have net suffering, but that's a separate issue. The argument is that at least the vast majority of people suffer more than they think. This seems incoherent. Am I missing something?
Because I think more of us could use a smile..."Depressed houseplant girl is the Millennial version of crazy cat lady."
The problem is not god, the trap, this realm.I'm piss of about parents. The problem is simple, easy. We are doomed because sex. This intense need is the motor of this hellish machine-existence.
There are great moments but nobody enjoy to be responsable of someone else during 20-30 years (more if your child have babies later)
That's expensive, stressful and whatever you try to be a really good mum/dad, life will not spare your descendance. 1 child on 5 suffered touching from relatives, the air and food are now toxic, genetic deseases etc etc.
One-child policyI think implementing a one-child policy (like China did) worldwide would be great. Banning everyone from having kids might be a little hard to accomplish, but I believe decreasing the world population would make life happier for the existing humans. Too much of something is never a good thing, and right now it feels like we live in a world of breeding chaos.
**Edit: I don’t really hold this as a strong opinion, It was more about seeing if others agree with the idea, and if not, why. I understand how this would become an anti-women ordeal.**
Do ya’ll hate the poorMost of the posts on here are just shaming poor people for wanting kids. I don’t see how it’s wrong to want a family especially if that’s how you’re raised to think. Wealthy people generally have access to more education and resources which give them the privilege of planning their family. Less educated people with less access to medical care are more likely to have kids at a young age. I agree that we should not raise kids in bad circumstances, but I don’t think shaming poor people is going to fix anything.
Why is this a controversial thing to say?
“Telling my husband I am pregnant with our 5th kid in 6 years”
That Twitch DJ just killed himself.The guy shot himself in the head and he had 3 kids….I don’t think suicide is selfish until you have decided to reproduce. Once you have kids then suicide is the most selfish thing in the world. Seriously, what are these celebrities thinking??? They have multiple kids and THEN chose to off themselves. I truly don’t get it.
found on r/voidcake
A Possible Justification and Defense of Health-Based "Eugenics" Controversial I acknowledge, but health-centric eugenics is, to me at least, a logical, defensible position from a utilitarian/anti-suffering standpoint if one strips away and disposes the unscientific, outmoded views on 'race', which does not actually exist in a strictly biological-genetic sense in the species of human beings/homo sapiens (race 'eliminativism' or reductionism is generally accepted view amongst geneticists, evolutionary biologists, and anthropologists). I would technically consider my view as "anti-dysgenic" and see it as a moderate, middle ground "compromise". If total/unconditional, philosophical anti-natalism is rejected and humans continue to insist on this reproduction "mission", the procreative imposition, it would be infinitely preferable that the babies and children born are as healthy as possible and have to suffer as few disadvantages, hardships, defectiveness, and unfair starts as we could proactively manage/influence. This would fall, from my understanding, into the sub-category known as de-natalism. People who knowingly go forth to procreate and passing on terrible, debilitating, genetically inheritable/congenital diseases and disabilities to the new child, who couldn't even consent to the imposition of life even in a considerably normal, healthy body, are not commendable, brave, or acting with any kind 'bestowing of love' or risk-assessing of the best-interest and well-being of the future child.
Contemplate and ruminate upon a thought experiment where doctors existing in some theoretical transhumanist, Gattaca-style future, wherein "designer babies" became a reality, were to go into the womb and perform surgeries and conduct CRISPER Cas-9 type gene editing of a negative, detrimental nature, that is these engineers actually put in/inserted mutations and specific deleterious, harmful genes that caused deformities in utero or into fertilized eggs/embryos to later implant in the uterus. What if the parents voluntarily approved and were allowed to ingest the notorious thalidomide with full, absolute knowledge of the fateful outcome or have the extra copy of chromosome 21 placed to deliberately/intentionally cause Down Syndrome. This practice would be widely excoriated as a bioethical-moral abomination and utterly unjustifiable disaster, an egregious, dystopian, and selfishly cruel medical enterprise. The parents could respond to all reasoned criticism or proposals for regulation or illegalizing of this with "but it's my 'freedom' " or "it's my 'rightful, personal choice' ", but I do not think this would be a persuasive counterargument. However, is this very far from what happens when a prospective parent consciously decides to have biological children with cystic fibrosis, cerebral palsy, chronic pain syndromes, multiple sclerosis, Parkinsons disease, severe autism, spina bifida, scoliosis, or schizophrenia (with full possession of the facts and extensive family histories concerning their genetic makeup or with our advanced ultrasonic methods of prenatal testing)? Would we encourage or condone going up to newborn infants or toddlers and injecting some hypothetical paralysis drug/serum, then excuse it by proclaiming with obtuse, flippant certainty, "yes, they'll be disabled for life, but they'll get over it, eventually learn to cope through the process of adaptation with this adversity, burdensome inequity, and all the major, handicapping challenges blah, blah, blah."
I wouldn't wish these medical-physical health problems/dysfunctions I have on my own worst enemy, yet I'm supposed to and probably socially rewarded or pressured to find some woman to impregnate, have a kid and willfully transmit the gene-rooted predisposition, vulnerability/susceptibility or outright guarantee to them? My OCD and generalized anxiety were enough of a catalyst for me to begin introspectively analyzing and philosophically deducing, in my mid-teens, the conclusion to swear off ever reproducing. I found it un-conscionable, conceited, and the furthest possible thing from empathy, compassion, beneficence, or love. Many will commonly concur with the same sentiment of "I wouldn't wish \[insert any debilitating, disabling physiological disease/disorder or crippling psychological/mental illness compiled in the preponderance of the medical literature"\] on my worst enemy" phrase, but then you will give it without any cautionary hindrance or pre-considerations to your own child?
EuthanasiaHey guys. I have to submit a university paper soon. Can you guys fill out this form? All emails and personal information will be kept private; this form is only for scientific purposes. Thanks
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[https://forms.gle/GorkFPnCrq9ZrRxg9](https://forms.gle/GorkFPnCrq9ZrRxg9)
Just A Story.When I was a child and learned I didn't "have" to reproduce as I had been taught, I was so relieved. I had always been disgusted by procreation, not only on a physical level but on a moral level. Even as a young child, I understood there were so many children without parents who needed responsible and nurturing adults to love them, and that if I ever wanted to become a parent someday, which I highly doubted, I would adopt a child instead of procreating myself. I remember sharing this with my dad who insisted that someday I would feel different and I would want "children of my own". This upset me. He wasn't listening. I saw no need to have a child come out of my body when so many already needed care and love and I didn't think I would ever want to be a parent anyway. And I didn't understand what the difference was, whether it was my own biological child or an adopted child and what the difference in value was. I grew into an adult and I maintained my stance on not wanting to reproduce. It never changed. No relationship or societal pressure influenced me to do something I didn't want to do. Now consider this - At 41 I was diagnosed with adneocarcinoma in my cervix and had to have my uterus, including cervix removed. Considering nowadays, females can reproduce into their 40s, this could have been an absolutely devastating blow to me had I wanted to have a child. Instead I feel nothing but joy to have the adneocarcinoma removed, to never have a pointless menstrual cycle again, and never ever can I carry a child in my body which was something that always disgusted me and that society made me feel I owed to them. Fuck you society for making females feel as though they have to carry children inside of them. I feel pure joy when I realize that it would be physically impossible for that to happen to me now. I'm grateful that I never wanted children and that instead of this being a tragedy for me, it's a victory. now that my body is free from ever having to reproduce, I would like to help women who can but who don't want to somehow be liberated, whether it's through education, access to contraception, etc. I haven't thought too much about it yet, because my uterus was only recently removed but there's got to be a way I can help women who don't want to reproduce understand they don't have to. Thanks for listening to my story.
lmfao
I hate “miracle” stories where doctors advised people to not have kids and they didLike they say not to for a reason, your kid could die and so can you? I don’t understand these people. I was born under trash circumstances like low class, dead beat dad and mom working all day. And I have many chronic illnesses due to genetics. This is child abuse. Why have a child if your going to work all day, I wish I was never born. There is no such thing as a miracle child. If a doctor advises you not to have a baby you really shouldn’t. Like how desperate are you to ruin a innocent life?
People who say they are good with kids and care for them and want to protect their innocence SHOULDNT have kids. They know damn well how bad life is. So, if you care about human life and care about protecting innocent kids then don’t have kids. It’s that simple….
this sub isn’t what I signed up for but I hope y’all find what you’re looking for hereI really enjoy the actual AN content and discussions that go on. The actual idea of the philosophy and how people experience the world and being alive while also being AN is really interesting but half of y’all just rip into parents and make fun of people who have genetic disorders and it’s just rude and uncomfortable and isn’t sparking discussion.
Shitting on peoples lives and how they’re living now isn’t what this sub should be about. It should be about the ethics and morality of having children but it’s just roasting babies who have genetic defects and dragging parents who are having children as opposed to us diving deeper into conversations about WHY they’re having children.
Just wanted to make it clear that making fun of people and being mean isn’t helping the cause and it’s likely why people think this subreddit is creepy and weird.
I enjoyed a lot of the posts but after seeing someone say that a baby with an enlarged tongue “jump scared” them it made me realize how cringe this space is 💀
Just going to drop off the kids…
ew, look what i found
yall aint right, prove me wrongI never been here but reddit sent a notification about this, and this is a real sad sub. Like the only time a point made sence was because they couldnt afford it, but besides that its just a bunch of people who fuck around. Like there wasnt a single time i thought "huh this has a point," it has been nothing but sadness. I want some of yall to send me your reasons cause i just dont get it.